Questions for the Free State Project People

[J’raxis 270145]

The common thread I see is the (using Denis's own word) "collectivist" view... ie. that this "forum" is intolerant. When someone tried to lump politicians as a group, Denis said that it was "collectivist" thinking. Then he groups everyone on this forum in the same category.

Everyone seems to fall into this trap from time to time.

And, even though it's not accurate, collectively is how a lot of people view things, and we have no control over that. A couple people behaving intolerantly on the forum makes "the forum" appear intolerant to most ordinary people out there, and it makes all of us look bad.

[J’raxis 270145]

People I know of who've left or been driven off due to treatment by others on this forum:—

• Bald Eagle (asked to leave for same reasons as Powerchuter, if I heard right)
• Braddog
• CNHT (and many others I forget, who left when the political boards were closed)
• d_goddard
• malcolm
• RattyDog

I left for a long time.... came back eventually... even worked behind the scenes to keep it up and running...

Seems to be a few other people who've done that—I notice there's a deleted account belonging to Friday, but she's posting again, so apparently she came back. I myself usually just stop posting for a few days when things get too stupid around here.

[J’raxis 270145]

I felt like the Kannings were overly tolerant, leaving up political planning posts when they had clearly expressed that this board was not for that. It's spraying graffiti on their home. I was slightly annoyed at that, honestly, knowing there are about six other boards where you can do that and that people are here specifically to discuss, well just about anything, but not that. It's like spam. I mean, why do spammers mis-spell "viagra" so it gets past my filters when the reason that word is in my filter is because I'm not interested in those products?? That's poorly targeted marketing! What a waste of bandwidth.

The rationale of such spam is that in many cases ISPs install filters, that their customers didn't request or even know about. So, it's pretty easy for someone who thinks they're selling a great product to conclude that all those potential customers really do want to know about it, and that the ISP is standing in their way.

I wonder if the rationale for some of the political posts on this board was similar—that the board admins don't speak for every user on the forum, and some users certainly would like to see, or at least don't mind, the political posts.

I know you don't like Vitruvian's thread and that's probably what's looming in your mind. I still contend that his approach was tactless and didn't take into account that he was putting people on the defensive, but he was not trying to drive anyone off. He feels very strongly about the subject and he brought it up not to guilt-trip people, but because he thought he could persuade others to his point of view using logic and reason. Vitruvian is like Spock. I guarantee his goal was not to stir up emotions or drive people off. I think others joined the conversation and tried to just argue points, but there was a sort of collectivist thing that happened as Caleb described whereby anyone who shared Vitruvian's point of view tended to get associated with that tactlessness.

I was thinking of that thread, yes—not that Vitruvian himself wanted to drive people off, but it certainly energized those who do want to cajole and coerce the political activists to go elsewhere. That thread did, if I recall correctly, play a part in the Kannings' decision to close and then delete the political boards, too.

As the self-proclaimed Ambassador of the Schism, I humbly ask that everyone relax a little bit and join in a group hug.

You always have to be so reasonable whenever these dramas break out, don't you?

[FTL_Ian]

That thread did, if I recall correctly, play a part in the Kannings' decision to close and then delete the political boards, too.

It may, in fact, be the best decision made in the history of this forum.   

[J’raxis 270145]

Secondly, I think I should clarify that I wasn't the only one who decided that they were going to start keeping an eye open for all the pot violations that were going on, and report them. There were many people within the community that had decided that enough was enough, and that the community was no longer going to tolerate marijuana usage. So my efforts were part of a larger police & community decision, not just something that I up and decided as a result of my individual annoyance with the situation. And by the way, it worked. We got the pot cleaned out of the community, and now everybody keeps an eye on everybody else, so the same situation that had been taking place up until 3 years ago has never and will never take place again.

Do you believe this somehow minimizes or obviates your own responsibility?

[FTL_Ian]

the community was no longer going to tolerate marijuana usage.

He sounds like a communist.

We got the pot cleaned out of the community, and now everybody keeps an eye on everybody else, so the same situation that had been taking place up until 3 years ago has never and will never take place again.

Living in fantasy land.  You and your govt thugs will never stop the drug business.   

[J’raxis 270145]

We got the pot cleaned out of the community, and now everybody keeps an eye on everybody else, so the same situation that had been taking place up until 3 years ago has never and will never take place again.

Living in fantasy land.  You and your govt thugs will never stop the drug business.   

Sounds to me like they just did a nice job of driving it further underground. "Keep an eye on everybody" and people just learn to do it where they're not watched.

[Landon Jeffery]

And in the Netherlands, in Amsterdam, where it's legal and where I've been, it along with heroin causes people to throw bottles and other garbage all over the streets, so the streets are nothing but a great big mess of bottles and garbage. I saw it with my own eyes.

I don't want the streets of every city in the USA (including my own!) to be a mess of bottles and garbage, and I don't want to have a horde of people that go around hitting other people (including me!). So that is why I, along with what is apparently the majority of Americans, oppose legalization of pot and other illegal drugs.

ummm.   luke?   Did you go to the same Amsterdam that I went to?  You couldn't have because the Amsterdam that I went to happened to not have heaps and heaps of bottles/garbage in the streets.   Hmmm..  I was there in Mar07 and pot was still legal(trust me I know).  Nor did I commit any crimes, violent or not, and have not for the majority of 4 years that I have smoked pot.  I have been clear minded and I have also learned much in the past 4 years.  Including having a steady income and being able to purchase the pot without theft.  The people who are commiting crimes while on pot are likely to commit the same crimes when sober or when drinking alcohol.  Your claims are completely ludicris.   Luke I hope that in the future you think before you type.  Oh maybe you should just try pot and then you will find out that it isn't "warping" your mind beyond repair.   Dumba,,

[FTL_Ian]

It's hard to believe someone could live in that fantasy.  I say he's a troll.

[dalebert]

I was thinking of that thread, yes—not that Vitruvian himself wanted to drive people off, but it certainly energized those who do want to cajole and coerce the political activists to go elsewhere. That thread did, if I recall correctly, play a part in the Kannings' decision to close and then delete the political boards, too.

But that's exactly my point. I don't believe for a moment that the intent was to drive anyone away. The intent was to have political organizing take place elsewhere. Some people reacted to that Cartman-style. "I'm taking my ball and going home!" They didn't have to do that. I think it was a sort of boycott, an acceptable market action to a decision that they didn't like, but come on. Do you really think we don't LIKE those people despite not wanting to personally support certain specific actions? Do you really think the Kannings or myself or any particular group of people (collectivism again) didn't want to associate with all those people who left? All those people we had lots of friendly conversations with on this board? Have we been looking down our noses at them at public events? I just don't get that impression at all. It seems so far fetched to me that the intent was to actually drive them away. I think the intent was to agree to disagree and get on with things.

I was one of the first to say that political activity is immoral, but I don't think like a Christian, i.e. all sins are equal in the eyes of God. I think I'm being immoral when I pay taxes but I have my justifications. People engaged in political activity have their justifications. I used to be there. I know where they're coming from. I'd like to change their minds someday and I think I might but not if I drive them away. Luke is an asshole for supporting the violence of prohibition but I don't think politically active libertarians are assholes. I still feel like they are good people and trustworthy and worth befriending and having dealings with. I do not feel that way about Luke and will not unless he changes a lot about who he is. See? If I don't like you, I WILL tell you! All sins are not equal.

As the self-proclaimed Ambassador of the Schism, I humbly ask that everyone relax a little bit and join in a group hug.

You always have to be so reasonable whenever these dramas break out, don't you?

I'm a bastard like that. 

[Beth221]

most of the folks who "do drugs" are contributing members of society, they work full time, make good money.  Most of the hard core drugs I have seen (not used myself) in use, was at a Doctors convention.  Smart, over educated people.  Not naked bums like Luke is talking about. 

[Lloyd Danforth]

Even a stoned out heroin junkie is a lot less of a problem when maintaining his jones is a few bucks a day verses the hundreds of dollars due to it being illegal.

[Atlas]

Ok first of all, what is a "narc". Is that some kind of New Hampshire slang or something.

If you're Christian, it means that you're the equivalent of Judas selling/forsaking Jesus to the Romans (re: the government).

[J’raxis 270145]

I was thinking of that thread, yes—not that Vitruvian himself wanted to drive people off, but it certainly energized those who do want to cajole and coerce the political activists to go elsewhere. That thread did, if I recall correctly, play a part in the Kannings' decision to close and then delete the political boards, too.

But that's exactly my point. I don't believe for a moment that the intent was to drive anyone away. The intent was to have political organizing take place elsewhere. Some people reacted to that Cartman-style. "I'm taking my ball and going home!" They didn't have to do that. I think it was a sort of boycott, an acceptable market action to a decision that they didn't like, but come on. Do you really think we don't LIKE those people despite not wanting to personally support certain specific actions? Do you really think the Kannings or myself or any particular group of people (collectivism again) didn't want to associate with all those people who left? All those people we had lots of friendly conversations with on this board? Have we been looking down our noses at them at public events? I just don't get that impression at all. It seems so far fetched to me that the intent was to actually drive them away. I think the intent was to agree to disagree and get on with things.

If I recall correctly, a lot of the people who reacted strongly, especially those who left, were people who thought closing the political boards was ungrateful. Whether or not it was the original intention of the site admins, NH Free had been treated as a sort of "one-stop shop" for the New Hampshire liberty movement. We had political stuff, apolitical stuff, and anti-political stuff, and people who didn't want to participate in any of those simply ignored the appropriate boards. (I seem to remember Russell even had the entire politics board on ignore.) All of the activists, political and anti-political alike, had done a lot of work to make NH Free as popular as it is... and then the politicos get told by the forum owner to take their work elsewhere. That pissed an awful lot of people off.

Luke is an asshole for supporting the violence of prohibition but I don't think politically active libertarians are assholes.

Luke is starting to sound like an incoherent troll. Either that or Dave Ridley randomly took a trip to Ohio to scope out Luke's house...

[Luke S]

Luke is starting to sound like an incoherent troll. Either that or Dave Ridley randomly took a trip to Ohio to scope out Luke's house...

No I'm not an incoherent troll. And in fact I found out exactly who owns that car I was talking about earlier. And no, it's not Dave Ridley. The car is owned by a man named Tyler Stearns. Here is his blog: http://tylerstearns.blogspot.com. Here is a photograph of him standing next to his car, and you can clearly see the license plate that says "NHFREE": http://tylerstearns.blogspot.com/2007/08/ron-paul-wins-strafford-straw-poll.html