WoW! I got banned from FTL

[Luke S]

Jean-Jacques Rousseau is no libertarian. In fact, his notion of the social contract has been used to justify the very worst aggressions of the state, as if everyone in some geographic area, who have no choice but to interact with their neighbors, and is subject to the depredations of their local thug-ocracy, has, by their very existence there, approved of what's being done to them.

Yeah, but I've known people who are libertarians who are such because they've accepted Rosseau's statements and premises concerning "the noble savage", and have rejected the rest of Rosseau's statements and premises, and have come to the conclusion that we are all "noble people", and should thus have a libertarian style of government.

[Luke S]

Luke, have you listed to or read the (audio)book "The Market For Liberty"? I think that's a really REALLY good book.

Well I just listened to the zeroeth chapter which said that slavery still exists, and I agree with that because that's what they did with Russell Kanning and Child support. Child support is nothing but a slavery system in which freeloading women can use the government to enslave men, and the government and lawyers can get a slice of the slavery money as well. It disgusts me.

So I suppose Chapter # 0 gets a 

Chapter # 1 said that youth didn't like being drafted well here's what I have to say about that: If it's some overseas faraway war, then I can understand, but if it were a war in which the United States had to be defended or had to put down a rebellion like in the Civil War, then youth would have to be drafted, but they didn't even mention those situations in this audiobook, now did they?

And the audiobook also said that the God and Country fervor of the right couldn't make this society better. Well that's wrong on it's face. The God and Country fervor of the Right is what keeps this country strong. Now I'm more on the Country fervor side of things than the God fervor side of things like the Religious Right is, but still I recognize that the God side of the God and country fervor is necessary. It's just that I'm 75% country fervor, 25% God fervor, whereas the religious right is the other way around. Actually I'm 25% God fervor, 25% Country fervor, and 50% fervor of getting rit of all the freeloaders, deviants, druggies, criminals, illegal immigrants, and people like that.

So Chapter 1 gets a

And Chapter 2 gets a because it was saying bad things about the sacrificial nature of man. Sacrifice is part of freedom. It is NOT always wrong like this book says. Sacrifice is part of freedom. And sometimes death is a necessary sacrifice too. How dare this book say that sacrifice is immoral!

And it also said that drugs are ok when they are not.

[Caleb]

Chapter # 1 said that youth didn't like being drafted well here's what I have to say about that: If it's some overseas faraway war, then I can understand, but if it were a war in which the United States had to be defended or had to put down a rebellion like in the Civil War, then youth would have to be drafted, but they didn't even mention those situations in this audiobook, now did they?

Luke, let me ask you a question, do you believe this?:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

[Luke S]

Chapter # 1 said that youth didn't like being drafted well here's what I have to say about that: If it's some overseas faraway war, then I can understand, but if it were a war in which the United States had to be defended or had to put down a rebellion like in the Civil War, then youth would have to be drafted, but they didn't even mention those situations in this audiobook, now did they?

Luke, let me ask you a question, do you believe this?:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Yes I do believe that.

[Caleb]

Ok, if you believe that, then several points:

You say that I should be able to be drafted so as to put down a rebellion such as that which happened in the civil war. How was the confederacy any different than the American revolution? Both were declaring independence, "altering it" and "instituting new Government, laying its foundation on such principles as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." 

Second point, an "inalienable" right is a right that is inherent, that cannot legitimately be taken away. Yet you believe I should be able to be drafted? I despise the American Government. I'm like 4 Non-Blondes, "And I pray, oh my God do I pray, I pray every single day FOR A REVOLUTION"  I have completely withdrawn my consent. Yet you believe that you should be able to subject me to involuntary servitude for the purpose of preserving a government that I would like to see overthrown? How contradictory is that? I guess my rights aren't so inalienable after all. And it's not only contradictory to your founding principles, it's also self-defeating. Because I assure you that if I am ever drafted, I will do everything in my power to ensure America's defeat. Am I the guy you want serving?

[Caleb]

And the audiobook also said that the God and Country fervor of the right couldn't make this society better. Well that's wrong on it's face. The God and Country fervor of the Right is what keeps this country strong. Now I'm more on the Country fervor side of things than the God fervor side of things like the Religious Right is, but still I recognize that the God side of the God and country fervor is necessary.

Let's reason on this a bit, Luke.

You are claiming that a better life can be achieved if people will adopt nationalism and develop strong national fervor.

Why is nationalism such a beneficial principle? Can you please explain the mechanism by which a person becomes a more moral person by adopting a strong patriotic sentiment? On what rational principle can nationalism be sustained? In other words, what makes your nation so much better than any others, such that I should feel superior on that basis?

[Luke S]

Ok, if you believe that, then several points:

You say that I should be able to be drafted so as to put down a rebellion such as that which happened in the civil war. How was the confederacy any different than the American revolution? Both were declaring independence, "altering it" and "instituting new Government, laying its foundation on such principles as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." 

The difference between the USA during the American Revolution and the Confederacy during the Civil War was that the Confederacy was advocating and practicing slavery while everybody else was trying to get rid of slavery. That's what the difference is.

Second point, an "inalienable" right is a right that is inherent, that cannot legitimately be taken away. Yet you believe I should be able to be drafted? I despise the American Government. I'm like 4 Non-Blondes, "And I pray, oh my God do I pray, I pray every single day FOR A REVOLUTION"  I have completely withdrawn my consent. Yet you believe that you should be able to subject me to involuntary servitude for the purpose of preserving a government that I would like to see overthrown? How contradictory is that? I guess my rights aren't so inalienable after all. And it's not only contradictory to your founding principles, it's also self-defeating.

First of all, when the Founding Fathers said "inalienable", they were using a flexable definition of inalienable, which meant "cannot be taken away without just cause". Putting down a rebellion is most certainly just cause.

Because I assure you that if I am ever drafted, I will do everything in my power to ensure America's defeat. Am I the guy you want serving?

No.

[Luke S]

And the audiobook also said that the God and Country fervor of the right couldn't make this society better. Well that's wrong on it's face. The God and Country fervor of the Right is what keeps this country strong. Now I'm more on the Country fervor side of things than the God fervor side of things like the Religious Right is, but still I recognize that the God side of the God and country fervor is necessary.

Let's reason on this a bit, Luke.

You are claiming that a better life can be achieved if people will adopt nationalism and develop strong national fervor.

Why is nationalism such a beneficial principle? Can you please explain the mechanism by which a person becomes a more moral person by adopting a strong patriotic sentiment? On what rational principle can nationalism be sustained? In other words, what makes your nation so much better than any others, such that I should feel superior on that basis?

I love nationalism so much. I hate all the people that took American nationalism away. It's like taking a piece of my heart away.

They have all these leftist events at all these colleges designed to tear apart America, and then somebody tried to have "catch an illegal immigrant day". And they were hounded and hounded by the left until they had to shut down the event. The Left has destroyed the national pride that used to be in this country, and it makes me sick.

I remember during 2001 and 2002 when finally a little bit of the nationalism got to come back. Just a tiny little bit. And I truly enjoyed that tiny little bit that got to come back. But then it went away again because the Left took it away again But believe me, I truly, truly did enjoy it for the short time that it was there.

[Caleb]

The difference between the USA during the American Revolution and the Confederacy during the Civil War was that the Confederacy was advocating and practicing slavery while everybody else was trying to get rid of slavery. That's what the difference is.

Not so. First of all, the US was itself a slave nation. Not all the slave states seceded, and the emancipation proclamation freed only those slaves that were in the seceding slave states. Second, think about this for a moment:  The United States was not the only nation that had to deal with the unjust system of slavery. Can you name any other country that solved its slavery problem via a bloody war? The US could have purchased all the slaves for a fraction of the cost of the war. Lincoln himself said that the war wasn't about slavery, it was about "preserving the Union"... Britain made a very similar argument: we can't let the colonies go, we must "preserve the commonwealth", and just like Lincoln feigned concern for slaves, Britain feigned concern for "his majesty's native population." Pretexts for war aren't hard to find. Substantively, there was no difference between the confederacy and the American revolution.

First of all, when the Founding Fathers said "inalienable", they were using a flexable definition of inalienable, which meant "cannot be taken away without just cause". Putting down a rebellion is most certainly just cause.

No, Luke, it is not a "just cause" to put down rebellion. The Declaration of Independence asserts the right of rebellion as an inalienable right, "to alter or abolish" remember? And the very act of trying to identify "just cause" for violating someone's inalienable rights is contradictory, it makes inalienable completely meaningless. I have a very nice copy of Jefferson's collected writings. They are brilliant, (so far as statists go). I no longer need it, and if you would like it, I will give it to you.

[Caleb]

And the audiobook also said that the God and Country fervor of the right couldn't make this society better. Well that's wrong on it's face. The God and Country fervor of the Right is what keeps this country strong. Now I'm more on the Country fervor side of things than the God fervor side of things like the Religious Right is, but still I recognize that the God side of the God and country fervor is necessary.

Let's reason on this a bit, Luke.

You are claiming that a better life can be achieved if people will adopt nationalism and develop strong national fervor.

Why is nationalism such a beneficial principle? Can you please explain the mechanism by which a person becomes a more moral person by adopting a strong patriotic sentiment? On what rational principle can nationalism be sustained? In other words, what makes your nation so much better than any others, such that I should feel superior on that basis?

I love nationalism so much. I hate all the people that took American nationalism away. It's like taking a piece of my heart away.

They have all these leftist events at all these colleges designed to tear apart America, and then somebody tried to have "catch an illegal immigrant day". And they were hounded and hounded by the left until they had to shut down the event. The Left has destroyed the national pride that used to be in this country, and it makes me sick.

I remember during 2001 and 2002 when finally a little bit of the nationalism got to come back. Just a tiny little bit. And I truly enjoyed that tiny little bit that got to come back. But then it went away again because the Left took it away again But believe me, I truly, truly did enjoy it for the short time that it was there.

This doesn't answer a single question that I put to you. Nationalism is not unique to America. The Germans had a lot of Nationalistic fervor around the time of World War II. I am asking you "why nationalism is beneficial". You simply responded by a) affirming that you are nationalistic. b) expressing discontent with those that aren't nationalistic. c) reminiscing about a time when people were more nationalistic. None of these approaches answers my questions.

[Luke S]

And the audiobook also said that the God and Country fervor of the right couldn't make this society better. Well that's wrong on it's face. The God and Country fervor of the Right is what keeps this country strong. Now I'm more on the Country fervor side of things than the God fervor side of things like the Religious Right is, but still I recognize that the God side of the God and country fervor is necessary.

Let's reason on this a bit, Luke.

You are claiming that a better life can be achieved if people will adopt nationalism and develop strong national fervor.

Why is nationalism such a beneficial principle? Can you please explain the mechanism by which a person becomes a more moral person by adopting a strong patriotic sentiment? On what rational principle can nationalism be sustained? In other words, what makes your nation so much better than any others, such that I should feel superior on that basis?

I love nationalism so much. I hate all the people that took American nationalism away. It's like taking a piece of my heart away.

They have all these leftist events at all these colleges designed to tear apart America, and then somebody tried to have "catch an illegal immigrant day". And they were hounded and hounded by the left until they had to shut down the event. The Left has destroyed the national pride that used to be in this country, and it makes me sick.

I remember during 2001 and 2002 when finally a little bit of the nationalism got to come back. Just a tiny little bit. And I truly enjoyed that tiny little bit that got to come back. But then it went away again because the Left took it away again But believe me, I truly, truly did enjoy it for the short time that it was there.

This doesn't answer a single question that I put to you. Nationalism is not unique to America. The Germans had a lot of Nationalistic fervor around the time of World War II. I am asking you "why nationalism is beneficial". You simply responded by a) affirming that you are nationalistic. b) expressing discontent with those that aren't nationalistic. c) reminiscing about a time when people were more nationalistic. None of these approaches answers my questions.

Because it creates happiness, and it causes people to realize that we need to get rid of or punish freeloaders, druggies, criminals, and illegal immigrants, and it also helps people to see though the UN's lies, and to have the courage to stand up to the UN. I believe that one day it might even lead to freedom from the UN, and having the UN be kicked out of New York, if we could get enough of it.

[Caleb]

It creates happiness?    Drugs create happiness.

On the basis of these benefits of nationalism that you have enumerated, would you therefore recommend nationalistic fervor to other nations as well? Perhaps Russia or Iran or China?

[Luke S]

And the audiobook also said that the God and Country fervor of the right couldn't make this society better. Well that's wrong on it's face. The God and Country fervor of the Right is what keeps this country strong. Now I'm more on the Country fervor side of things than the God fervor side of things like the Religious Right is, but still I recognize that the God side of the God and country fervor is necessary.

Let's reason on this a bit, Luke.

You are claiming that a better life can be achieved if people will adopt nationalism and develop strong national fervor.

Why is nationalism such a beneficial principle? Can you please explain the mechanism by which a person becomes a more moral person by adopting a strong patriotic sentiment? On what rational principle can nationalism be sustained? In other words, what makes your nation so much better than any others, such that I should feel superior on that basis?

I love nationalism so much. I hate all the people that took American nationalism away. It's like taking a piece of my heart away.

They have all these leftist events at all these colleges designed to tear apart America, and then somebody tried to have "catch an illegal immigrant day". And they were hounded and hounded by the left until they had to shut down the event. The Left has destroyed the national pride that used to be in this country, and it makes me sick.

I remember during 2001 and 2002 when finally a little bit of the nationalism got to come back. Just a tiny little bit. And I truly enjoyed that tiny little bit that got to come back. But then it went away again because the Left took it away again But believe me, I truly, truly did enjoy it for the short time that it was there.

This doesn't answer a single question that I put to you. Nationalism is not unique to America. The Germans had a lot of Nationalistic fervor around the time of World War II. I am asking you "why nationalism is beneficial". You simply responded by a) affirming that you are nationalistic. b) expressing discontent with those that aren't nationalistic. c) reminiscing about a time when people were more nationalistic. None of these approaches answers my questions.

Because it creates happiness, and it causes people to realize that we need to get rid of or punish freeloaders, druggies, criminals, and illegal immigrants, and it also helps people to see though the UN's lies, and to have the courage to stand up to the UN. I believe that one day it might even lead to freedom from the UN, and having the UN be kicked out of New York, if we could get enough of it.

I remember the day when George W. Bush stood up to the U.N., and he said that the USA didn't need a UN permission slip to defend ourselves, and he went to war anyway. It was the first step of the chains of the UN being broken. And I remember all the sissy liberals who wanted the USA to be a slave to the UN whining about it, but George Bush didn't listen to any of their whining, and he made it very clear that he didn't need a permission slip from them, either.

If it weren't for all the nationalism that was behind George Bush, then Bush wouldn't have been able to break that first UN chain that was around the USA.

And I remember when liberals lied and said that there were no weapons of mass destruction over there, and they are still lying to this very day. I remember hearing very distinctly on the radio that they had found a lab that was in the back of a truck that was being used to make biological weapons. But of course the liberal media only said it as one tiny little footnote. But it did not escape my ears. It was obvious that Saddam Hussein was trying to get ahold of weapons of mass destruction, and the liberal media is continuing to lie and say that he wasn't.

The reason why they hate Bush is that Bush stood up to them like nobody else ever has in the history of modern America. And they did what they do best, which is lie, and they lied about Bush over and over again until everybody hated him. But not me. I think that he was the best president we have ever had, because nobody stood up to the UN the way that Bush did, and nobody took a stand for America like Bush did.

[Caleb]

I remember the day when George W. Bush stood up to the U.N., and he said that the USA didn't need a UN permission slip to defend ourselves, and he went to war anyway. It was the first step of the chains of the UN being broken. And I remember all the sissy liberals who wanted the USA to be a slave to the UN whining about it, but George Bush didn't listen to any of their whining, and he made it very clear that he didn't need a permission slip from them, either.

If it weren't for all the nationalism that was behind George Bush, then Bush wouldn't have been able to break that first UN chain that was around the USA.

And I remember when liberals lied and said that there were no weapons of mass destruction over there, and they are still lying to this very day. I remember hearing very distinctly on the radio that they had found a lab that was in the back of a truck that was being used to make biological weapons. But of course the liberal media only said it as one tiny little footnote. But it did not escape my ears. It was obvious that Saddam Hussein was trying to get ahold of weapons of mass destruction, and the liberal media is continuing to lie and say that he wasn't.

The reason why they hate Bush is that Bush stood up to them like nobody else ever has in the history of modern America. And they did what they do best, which is lie, and they lied about Bush over and over again until everybody hated him. But not me. I think that he was the best president we have ever had, because nobody stood up to the UN the way that Bush did, and nobody took a stand for America like Bush did.

Thanks for that. I haven't laughed so hard in a month.

[Luke S]

Now with thad being said, what I didn't agree with was the "spreading democracy" part. Meaning that Bush should have gotten rid of the truck with the biological weapons lab, as well as the other WMD's that they found, and of course gotten rid of Hussein and his regime, and then they should have left. That is what Bush did wrong. And that is where I as a traditional conservative disagree with the neoconservatives.