NH: Students wearing empty holsters made a professor "upset," said Dean.

[Blain]

http://seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080421/NEWS/80421032

Students protest concealed firearms ban on campus

By Elizabeth Dinan
edinan@seacoastonline.com
April 21, 2008 5:34 PM

DURHAM — A nation-wide student protest advocating for legally-permitted students to be allowed to carry concealed weapons on campuses drew fire from University of New Hampshire officials Monday.

In an April 21 memo to staff, Mark Rubinstein, UNH Vice President of Student and Academic Services, said "we could not support this proposition."

Rubinstein was referencing a week-long "empty holster protest," launched by Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, in his Monday memo. The student group urges supporters to wear empty holders to classes from April 21-25 "in protest of state laws and school policies that stack the odds in favor of dangerous criminals and armed killers by disarming law abiding citizens licensed to carry concealed handguns virtually everywhere else."

UNH Deputy Police Chief Paul Dean said he met with one student who wore an empty holster on the UNH campus Monday. That student applied for the necessary protest permit in advance and, by simply wearing the empty holster in class, made a professor "upset," said Dean.

"I wanted to make sure (the student's) voice was not silenced by not going about it the right way," said Dean.

An NRA member and hunter who has had a gun since he was "a kid," Dean said he supports the Second Amendment and students' rights to protest, but not the intended outcome of the SCCC. Dean said trained officers, not unskilled students, should respond to any campus emergency.

"I don't want to see someone use a weapon under stress and not hit their intended target. The educational environment is not the place for firearms," he said. "Our police response to any place on campus is under two minutes."

Dave Burnett, an SCCC spokesman, cites the February 14 shooting at Northern Illinois University — in which grad student Steven Kamerczak, 27, shot and killed five students and himself — as happening in under two minutes.

"When seconds count, police are only minutes away," he said. "Kamerczak got off 54 shots before police arrived. Unless you put an officer in every classroom, police are not able to respond quickly enough."

Similarly, Dean said his officers, like others across the country, have trained in "active shooter" scenarios, in an effort to stop a shooting before the time it takes for a SWAT team to arrive.

Rubinstein's memo cites the active shooter training — in which law enforcement's role is to act quickly and without negotiation — is a good reason not to allow students to carry concealed weapons.

"Virtually any individual with a weapon in such a situation is assumed to be dangerous and the risk seems greater that such person will be indistinguishable from an assailant in such situations," he wrote.

UNH policy prohibits weapons on campus, while Rubinstein reminded his staff there is nothing regulating empty holsters on the Durham campus.

By contrast, the state has an open carry law which allows lawful citizens to carry firearms in the open without a permit. Carrying concealed is allowed by permits issued by the state and through individual police departments.


Letters to the Editor (of all 4 papers on this site):
rfabrizio@seacoastonline.com
equirk@seacoastonline.com
haltschiller@seacoastonline.com
dmcdermott@seacoastonline.com

[Blain]

What I don't understand is that UNH is a state institution, and as such is unable to ban the carrying of firearms on the property!  Especially after that law that Gov. Benson signed in about how no town or municipality can have more restrictive gun laws than the state. 

[Dylboz]

Why they think that we gun owners are incapable of hitting a target "under stress," is beyond me. That bit always sticks in my craw. Hey mister tweed jacket with the elbow patches, just because you would be so scared to handle a gun you'd blow a hole in your Birkenstocks doesn't mean I don't know how to handle my weapon!

[kola]

awesome.

they should have worn V masks too

[Puke]

Why they think that we gun owners are incapable of hitting a target "under stress," is beyond me. That bit always sticks in my craw. Hey mister tweed jacket with the elbow patches, just because you would be so scared to handle a gun you'd blow a hole in your Birkenstocks doesn't mean I don't know how to handle my weapon!

HAHA! Birkenstocks. 

[Jim Johnson]

Why they think that we gun owners are incapable of hitting a target "under stress," is beyond me. That bit always sticks in my craw. Hey mister tweed jacket with the elbow patches, just because you would be so scared to handle a gun you'd blow a hole in your Birkenstocks doesn't mean I don't know how to handle my weapon!

HAHA! Birkenstocks. 

Obviously graduated from UC Berkeley.   

[Atlas]

Why they think that we gun owners are incapable of hitting a target "under stress," is beyond me. That bit always sticks in my craw. Hey mister tweed jacket with the elbow patches, just because you would be so scared to handle a gun you'd blow a hole in your Birkenstocks doesn't mean I don't know how to handle my weapon!

HAHA! Birkenstocks. 

Obviously graduated from UC Berkeley.   

Or U-M mich

[J’raxis 270145]

Dean said trained officers, not unskilled students, should respond to any campus emergency.

...

Rubinstein's memo cites the active shooter training — in which law enforcement's role is to act quickly and without negotiation — is a good reason not to allow students to carry concealed weapons.

"Virtually any individual with a weapon in such a situation is assumed to be dangerous and the risk seems greater that such person will be indistinguishable from an assailant in such situations," he wrote.

Well gee, it's almost as if they're intentionally training the police in a manner that justifies not allowing civilians to carry weapons...

[J’raxis 270145]

What I don't understand is that UNH is a state institution, and as such is unable to ban the carrying of firearms on the property!  Especially after that law that Gov. Benson signed in about how no town or municipality can have more restrictive gun laws than the state. 

People keep pointing this out and talking about it, but nothing is going to happen unless someone with actual standing tries to sue the University (or the State) on these grounds. Either a student or an employee has to volunteer to violate this policy, then sue them over enforcing the policy.

If I recall correctly, someone who works there already tried writing them a letter about this, based on the same legal analysis you posted here. He just got back a letter from the school's lawyers with their own legal analysis, best summarized as: "nope, you're wrong."

[J’raxis 270145]

Why they think that we gun owners are incapable of hitting a target "under stress," is beyond me. That bit always sticks in my craw. Hey mister tweed jacket with the elbow patches, just because you would be so scared to handle a gun you'd blow a hole in your Birkenstocks doesn't mean I don't know how to handle my weapon!

Because trained experts, especially when they carry badges, are "better" than us ordinary types.

[grasshopper]

  In NH, the students are carrying, you just can't see the guns.   

[margomaps]

FYI, here's Mark Rubinstein's memo in its entirety:

Dear All,

Good morning. This week, you might expect to see some evidence of the "students for concealed carry on campus" protest.  The text below, taken from the group's website (for which the URL is listed at the bottom of this email), explains that the purpose of the protest—which takes the form of wearing empty holsters to campus to draw attention to a belief that if (ostensibly) law-abiding students (and others) could carry appropriately permitted concealed weapons on campus, this would somehow improve safety. 

Unfortunately, particularly in the context of the prevailing "active shooter" training that now is in place on this and many/most other campuses—in which law enforcement's role is to move swiftly to neutralize an assailant with a weapon (rather than seeking to wait them out or negotiate)—virtually any individual with a weapon in such a situation is assumed to be dangerous and the risk seems greater that such person (or persons) will be indistinguishable from an assailant in such situations.  Add to this the potential for injuries or death to bystanders that might result from insufficiently trained individuals with permitted weapons in these situations and it is apparent that we could not support this proposition.  That said, there are no prohibitions against carrying/wearing an empty holster on campus or into a classroom building or classroom.

There is also no obligation on the part of a faculty member to provide a forum for proponents of this position to discuss their views on this matter.  Additionally, the right of an individual to wear an empty holster does not imply that the individual has any right to interfere with the instructor's efforts to manage the classroom and faculty should feel free to call this office (2-2053) or the UNHPD (911 or 2-1427) if they feel in any way unsafe.

I want to reiterate, the form of protest being described below refers to empty holsters and there is no prohibition against wearing these on the UNH campus; however, the presence of a weapon of any type is still explicitly prohibited and any indication that an actual weapon (of any type) is present should precipitate a call to the UNHPD (911).

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thank you. mark

[ReverendRyan]

They say banning guns is for students' safety due to "active shooter" policies, ignoring the fact that allowing concealed carry on campus negates the need for such policies. Classic circular reasoning.

[margomaps]

They say banning guns is for students' safety due to "active shooter" policies, ignoring the fact that allowing concealed carry on campus negates the need for such policies. Classic circular reasoning.

I read it a different way.  If a student carrying a concealed weapon took the weapon out to stop a madman who was killing others, the "active shooter" policy might result in the student being shot and killed by the first police to arrive on the scene.  The whole point to "active shooter" policies is to kill everyone (except police) with a weapon immediately, under the assumption that waiting any longer to negotiate or whatnot may result in many more lost lives.

[ReverendRyan]

They say banning guns is for students' safety due to "active shooter" policies, ignoring the fact that allowing concealed carry on campus negates the need for such policies. Classic circular reasoning.

I read it a different way.  If a student carrying a concealed weapon took the weapon out to stop a madman who was killing others, the "active shooter" policy might result in the student being shot and killed by the first police to arrive on the scene.  The whole point to "active shooter" policies is to kill everyone (except police) with a weapon immediately, under the assumption that waiting any longer to negotiate or whatnot may result in many more lost lives.

EXACTLY.

Why do they have this "active shooter" policy? Because students are unarmed. Why are they kept unarmed? because of the "active shooter" policy. Why do they have this "active shooter" policy? Because students are unarmed. Why are they kept unarmed? because of the "active shooter" policy. Why do they have this "active shooter" policy? Because students are unarmed. Why are they kept unarmed? because of the "active shooter" policy. Why do they have this "active shooter" policy? Because students are unarmed. Why are they kept unarmed? because of the "active shooter" policy. Why do they have this "active shooter" policy? Because students are unarmed. Why are they kept unarmed? because of the "active shooter" policy. Why do they have this "active shooter" policy? Because students are unarmed. Why are they kept unarmed? because of the "active shooter" policy. Why do they have this "active shooter" policy? Because students are unarmed. Why are they kept unarmed? because of the "active shooter" policy. Why do they have this "active shooter" policy? Because students are unarmed. Why are they kept unarmed? because of the "active shooter" policy. Why do they have this "active shooter" policy? Because students are unarmed. Why are they kept unarmed? because of the "active shooter" policy. Why do they have this "active shooter" policy? Because students are unarmed. Why are they kept unarmed? because of the "active shooter" policy. Why do they have this "active shooter" policy? Because students are unarmed. Why are they kept unarmed? because of the "active shooter" policy. Why do they have this "active shooter" policy? Because students are unarmed. Why are they kept unarmed? because of the "active shooter" policy.

Circular.