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"Let them march all they want, as long as they pay their taxes."  --Alexander Haig

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Author Topic: Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?  (Read 21834 times)

FTL_Ian

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Re: Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2008, 09:45 PM NHFT »

If zaphar declines, perhaps FMTV will be interested...
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K. Darien Freeheart

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Re: Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2008, 09:45 PM NHFT »

I have some rationale behind my questions... Sorry for being wordy. :)

Sometimes gubbermint people play PR games and sometimes people actually do care. More realistically, I'm sure the level of activism in Keene is making some cops weary at the VERY least. Not understanding the philosophy of liberty, the buzz in the KPD could be that there's going to be riots any day now. :P

1.) What does he hope to gain/achieve with this ride-along?

Often times the excuse for enforcing non-violent laws is "I was just following orders" or sometiems the slippery slope arguement of "If we don't stop this guy, the next might take it one step further". There should come a time for EVERYONE where the order makes you question though.

2.) Are there any laws that he's aware of (I doubt he even knows about the puppet shows) that he wouldn't enforce? If not, why?

The general attidude of people is that they are uncomfortable near or actually fearful of law enforcement officials. Even people who will strongly defend government's existance will admit to both speeding AND being fearful of being pulled over (indicating they see no harm in speeding but still fear police force). Sometimes law enforcement actually justifies this fear off as "Anyone uncomfortable has somehting to hide" hinging on the presupposition that all laws are in fact just.

3.) As a law enforcement officer, why does he beleive police in general are despised? Does he beleive there's some reasonable truth behind the reasons given?

With the drug war "strong" and the number of non-violent offenders being arrested so high, how does the addition of firearms factor into this situation. If he suspected someone was selling some pot and noticed the person was open carrying, it's my opinion that he would approach this person as potentially "armed and dangerous" and with more hostility and force. We've all seen in the movies a scene where a drug dealer opens fire on a police officer to avoid or hinder being arrested.

4.) How does he feel about armed citizens? Given that police enforce victimless crimes AND the populace is entitled to be armed, what does he think PERSONALLY is the best way to keep law enforcement safe - ending the drug war or disarming the citizenry?

In the US, convicted felons are currently prohibited from exercising their full rights in terms of arming themselves. Considering that many drug offenses, certain tax crimes and certain other crimes are felonies and have NO victim...

5.) Does he support felons having the ability to carry firearms? Are there any circumstances where he beleives a felon should be able to reclaim this right? If NOT, what difference does he see between arming a non-violent person convicted of a felony and arming a non-violent person not convicted of a felony?

Of course, all of the questions posed by the other posters are great.

Finally, please extend my thanks to the officer. Thie invitation goes a LONG way to humanize the Keene Police. Even offering the conversation as a sign of equality is a far cry from what many police agencies around the world would tolerate, let alone invite.
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K. Darien Freeheart

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Re: Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2008, 09:47 PM NHFT »

Quote from: 'FTL_Ian'
If zaphar declines, perhaps FMTV will be interested

I hope he doesn't decline. :( Two of my questions are gun related and Tim was the only one who came to the last Social Sunday carrying openly. He's earned a warm spot in my heart.
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TackleTheWorld

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Re: Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2008, 09:49 PM NHFT »

This sounds like fun. 
  • I wonder how they deal with the volume of laws that exist. 
  • Do they read and remember them all? 
  • I wonder how they feel about people they arrest. 
  • Have their friends or relatives ever disobeyed a law? 
  • Would they arrest their mother? 
  • Would they ever break a law?
  • Have they ever broken a law? 
  • Did they ever arrest themselves? 
  • Do they have to be the witness and the prosecution like the state police do?
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Tom Sawyer

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Re: Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2008, 09:52 PM NHFT »

The assumption that the cops are corrupt or abusive misses the real issues.

It is the laws and, maybe more so, the procedures they are trained in that are the problem. It used to be getting pulled over was not necessarily going to lead to worse things. The cops now are trained to collect information... license and registration... run the info see if you are wanted etc. see if they can come up with a pretext to search the vehicle.

When I was younger, I got pulled over dozens of time and rarely got a ticket and many times never even had to show ID.
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highline

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Re: Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2008, 09:53 PM NHFT »

do you really like messing with your siren while going under bridges?

YES!  I confess!!!!!
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Mike Barskey

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Re: Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2008, 09:57 PM NHFT »

More great questions, Kevin. Good thinking. I also like this line of questioning from Lauren: "I wonder how they deal with the volume of laws that exist. Do they read and remember them all?" There's no way cops (or anyone) can know all the rules; perhaps they find someone they want to harass or give a ticket to, but don't really have a reason or only have a suspicion, so maybe they use their car-computers (or radio to someone at the office with the law books handy) to look for laws that are being broken (it can't be hard with the number of laws out there.

However, if that's not what happens, then a cop can't possibly claim to be enforcing the law, since they don't even know all the laws. So then you can go on to ask how they choose which laws they want to remember or enforce. And then maybe you can point out that if a cop can arbitrarily decide which laws to enforce, why can't people arbitrarily decide which laws to follow? And I think this very quickly leads to: what is a crime (i.e., is there a victim)?
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Tom Sawyer

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Re: Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2008, 10:01 PM NHFT »

As far as the ride along is concerned... you could look at it as a way to get good B-roll footage and a better understanding of their procedures.
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kola

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Re: Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2008, 10:04 PM NHFT »

lots of good questions!

I would LOVE to see them answered by one (or more) of the cops that are reading on this forum.

note: the only thing is that they have had time to read the questions and prepare their answers. I would rather see them have to think on their feet and have the questions presented directly in person.

give it a go guys?

Kola
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kola

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Re: Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2008, 10:09 PM NHFT »

maybe call it "servant homework".

Kola ;D
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2008, 11:32 PM NHFT »

How about "Are you amenable to starting a program where Copwatch participants regularly ride-along with cops, so that people in the community know immediately when cops do the wrong thing and, more importantly, so that so that cops are less likely to do the wrong thing and so that the community sees the cops are willing to work with them in order to provide a safer society?"

On the one hand, it would probably stem a lot of abuse.

On the other hand, it’s like “embedded reporters” in the military. At what point would copwatchers start to become biased, and just part of the system?
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K. Darien Freeheart

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Re: Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2008, 05:14 AM NHFT »

Quote from: 'Tom Sawyer'
The assumption that the cops are corrupt or abusive misses the real issues.

It is the laws and, maybe more so, the procedures they are trained in that are the problem.

I have to say respectfully that I see no difference between these things. To me, unless a law enforcement offical has witnessed me committing a violent crime, or unless he or she is responding to a report of the same, I see that information gathering and law-breaking fishing expedition AS abusive. Rights violating laws are powerless without enforcement. If police stopped enforcing, prosecutors stopped prosecuting or prisons stopped holding people who violate laws that are ethically disagreeable, the law would be effectively irrelevant.

But I think I understand what you're getting at... That the LEO's intention isn't to weild power they just think that it's "their job". But to me, regardless of job description or training, the actions ARE abusive. The "not trying to be bad" angle actually frightens me a little more than the idea of intentionally abusive cops.

Quote from: 'C. S. Lewis'
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
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Kat Kanning

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Re: Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2008, 05:44 AM NHFT »

If ordered to confiscate weapons from everyone, would you do it?
If ordered to round up people into camps, would you do it?
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ancapagency

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Re: Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2008, 06:40 AM NHFT »

My suggestion would be to lay off the hard questions at the beginning. 

Take the opportunity to build rapport with this guy--you want him to begin to see you as a good guy--not to put him on the defensive immediately, allowing him to cast you (in his mind) as a "bad guy."

Let him see you paying attention to what he does, let him talk to you about what he wants to talk about, and keep your questions light at the beginning.  Build a relationship with this guy. Go on a few ride-alongs with him.  Ask him what he cares about.  Ask him what made him decide to become a LEO, how he likes the job, what he doesn't like about the job, what he really likes about the job.  Get to know him as a person, take an interest in him as a person, and let him recognize that you see him as an individual and not just another cop. Like I said, build rapport.

When it comes up in the natural course of discussion, ask him the philosophical questions, political questions, see how he responds to the Non-Aggression Principle.  Make sure you always ask the questions in a soft and non-threatening way.  Try not to inundate him with a whole lot of hard questions and deep thoughts and profound philosophy at once.  Take your time.  Make a project of this guy.  And let him change his own mind and come to our side, rather than trying to push him in the deep end to swim or drown right away.

It's tougher, and takes longer, and takes a lot of patience, and may run absolutely counter to what you want to do at the moment--but it'd be fast and easy to make a permanent enemy out of him.  Take the opportunity to make an ally and friend out of him.  He's a LEO, so chances are he's not even close to presently being in our camp.  But he has made the offer, and that gives us the chance to carefully lead him into our camp, and make him an ally.

Obviously, I'm not saying that you shouldn't raise hell if you see him doing something really wrong.  But it will probably be more productive if you can overlook his failings as much as possible, and be patient, and gradually make him a friend. 

Also, make an effort to show him you're actually a good member of society, and don't go out of your way to make him see you as a "druggie" or "militia freak" or "conspiracy nut" or anything like that.  And, at the risk of being contradictory, try not to be too evasive, either.  If he asks you a question that doesn't incriminate you, especially about what you believe, take the opportunity to open up to him and be honest.  If he asks you point blank if you think drugs should be legal, tell him: "Yes, as a matter of fact I do.  I believe everyone owns their own body, and should be allowed to put or not put what they want to into it.  I recognize that some people are going to be stupid about what they put into their bodies, but I don't see any reason you should have to risk your life and safety to prevent them from doing so."  And unless he has a follow-up question, leave it at that for now.

Let him see you being calm, cool, and collected.  Let him see you being a "stand-up guy" and a good member of society.  And let him see you as someone he can confide in and trust.  Be his friend if at all possible.  It will be much more productive to make him an ally than to corner him into making some ill-advised (from his standpoint) comment in order to portray him as "just another thuggish cop."  He may well be one right now, but if there's even the chance of winning him over to our side, it'd be good to do so.
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Kat Kanning

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Re: Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2008, 06:51 AM NHFT »

Build rapport...make him feel like he's not a bad guy?  Whatever the hell for?  We don't need anything from them.  They need something from us.  That's why they're smoozing the copwatch guys.
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