Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?

[highline]

No one's calling you a liar, I'm sure you were beat up by the cops 20 years ago.

Yeah your sure huh? You know my type huh? Yeah you know it all huh? You da man.

See this is the stuff that irks me...that rightous attitude bullshit and above the law arrogance.

Keep smoozing with the others.

You proved to me you aint no different then the rest of the scum.

Kola

Kola,

I do not know you, but your reactions and name calling in a perfectly civil conversation simply shows how unreasonable and judgemental you are.

You did the same to me when I gave you an honest and respectful answer. It seems as if unless you hear the exact words you want in a response that the person responding to you is automatically "scum." That is very inept.  

[ReverendRyan]

Kola,

I do not know you, but your reactions and name calling in a perfectly civil conversation simply shows how unreasonable and judgemental you are.

You did the same to me when I gave you an honest and respectful answer. It seems as if unless you hear the exact words you want in a response that the person responding to you is automatically "scum." That is very inept.   

Look at any of his posts anywhere: more of the same.

[highline]

Kola,

I do not know you, but your reactions and name calling in a perfectly civil conversation simply shows how unreasonable and judgemental you are.

You did the same to me when I gave you an honest and respectful answer. It seems as if unless you hear the exact words you want in a response that the person responding to you is automatically "scum." That is very inept.   

Look at any of his posts anywhere: more of the same.

I simply cannot take him seriously as he is acting childish.

I believe the Lieutenant is serving the community of Keene well by being available on this forum to answer questions community members have. I highly doubt you will find this willingness of interaction on his part in many other agencies.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

To all, it's "Maxfield" , not "Maxwell".  No biggie, but it's my real name.

Kevin Dean is my real name. My apologies, I read it at a glance and typed what my brain soaked up.

I'm gonna have to stand by my prevention before victim stance.  If there was a lightning-damaged tree leaning over your house, which may or may not end up crashing through your roof, you perhaps would deal with it rather than wait and see.  Or, if some guy at the next PorcFest brings his compound bow and starts firing arrows through the crowd, not hitting anyone, but coming pretty darn close, I suspect someone there would act before there was a victim.

You're right here, if someone was being stupid there WOULD be intervention. I don't mean to give the impression that people should do NOTHING. However, to me there is a distinction when dealing with a police officer for one simple fact. Weither or not you would use force in any given situation is irrelevant - as a law enforcement officer you have a socially held monopoly on the use of force. Intervention as I meant was intervening with the use of force. I'm absolutely certain that you wouldn't use force unless you felt it was needed to protect yourself or another person but as a mental exercise, how many people would stop for your traffic enforcement if you didn't have the ability to chase the suspect down, make an arrest and use violence IF he didn't comply with the arrest? It is that fact that I think is the cause for discomfort. My issue is more with that monoply on force rather than what is done with it. As friendly as you may be, as polite as your warnings may be, there's still the implied threat of force (such as being sent to jail) when you turn those sirens on.

By my dealing with the reckless motorcyclist, how would you become a victim of my actions?

Directly... I'm not. However, doing so creates a precedent. It says "There are behaviors I will attempt to alter that have no victim". The behavior that falls into that category is left so vague that it is possible it's interpretation falls on me. Enforcement of drug laws don't affect me either since the only drug I do is alchohol... But who's to say that drug enforcement doesn't at some point evolve into alchohol enforcement? Tobacco is still technically legal, but you can now be fined in MANY places for it's use indoors; this is the slippery slope effect that I say I'd rather be victimized than have. I would rather have people who MIGHT hurt me running free than have someone who might NOT be deprived of their freedom in some shape or form.

I suppose the opposite question could apply here too... What's the harm in NOT enforcing the law? It's not you will be victimized by the cyclist. The similarity is in the uncertainty. You see the likelyhood that he MIGHT injure someone and in this preemptive action system I see loads of potential for abuse. In my opinion, national drunk driving laws are VERY much on the level of abuse today. While I think drunk driving is disgusting (like you I once got drunk and drove... I had nightmares about it for a week!), the "he might be drunk" line-pushing has gotten ridiculous. Speed limits themselves are there. Ask yourself... If the goal is really to provide safety, why do police use speed traps? If you want traffic to move slowly and orderly, put your cruiser on the street. VERY few people feel comfortable flying past a visable police car. When there are speed traps, however, the idea is the "catch someone doing something wrong". I'm a little tired, I hope that distinction is coming through.

I have to state that there are career violent criminals out there, the kind who shoot pregnant bank tellers killing their babies, who probably shouldn't be allowed to carry.

I don't disagree with you on that last part - there ARE scumbags who wish to do nothing but destroy human life. Nobody is saying this isn't the case. I'm simply saying that every human being is limited to their own brains so it is therefore impossible to ensure that every felon who will NOT harm someone can reclaim that right.

You make well thought-out points.

Thank you.

[Shane Maxfield]

Also, what are the "applaud" and "smite" links on the left?

Those affect Karma. If you click applaud on someone, their karma goes up one. Smite takes it down one. Just a peer rating system that helps determine at a glance which posters have a solid track record. You can only repeat an action on the same person once per hour.

Ok, fair enough...that actually explains much.

Care to share what exactly I explained? I could guess but I'd rather not assume

Your guess is probably right, remind me if you see me, I'll tell you in person...and it's nothing bad on you!

[MGMAN]

My name is Mike I go by the nick MGMAN in the cop watch website, this is my first post on this board. I do not dislike Cops; I also do not refer to Cops as pigs or swine. I also do not group all Cops into 1 group and say that ALL are bad. HOWEVER I see Cops who abuse their First Responder status in their daily patrols and see the negative attitude many Cops have for the general public. I have seen peoples faces busted from Cop beatings and I have seen examples of stuff like what happened in NYC when those 3 Cops KILLED that man and got by with it because of a bad Judge. I get tired of reading and hearing Cops try to sweep this crap under the rug by saying it's just a small percentage of Cops that do it. If you wear a badge and you look the other way when another Cop violates someone's rights or harms them, and you DO NOT do anything about it as most do, you have violated your oath and have in my opinion committed a crime. Till Cops do something about that thin blue line the public are at risk, its that simple. So as I have said many many times you are either part of the solution or you are part of the problem, there is NO middle ground.

I posted this in the Copwatch website a while back, I think its fitting here too.


I am not real good at explaining my meaning sometimes and I fear this post will be misunderstood, but I think if I can get my point across maybe my feelings about Cops can be better understood.

Ethics
1plural but sing or plural in constr : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
2 a: a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values <the present-day materialistic ethic> <an old-fashioned work ethic> —often used in plural but singular or plural in construction <an elaborate ethics><Christian ethics> bplural but sing or plural in constr : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group <professional ethics> c: a guiding philosophy d: a consciousness of moral importance <forge a conservation ethic>
3plural : a set of moral issues or aspects (as rightness) <debated the ethics of human cloning>

Morality

1 a: a moral discourse, statement, or lesson b: a literary or other imaginative work teaching a moral lesson
2 a: a doctrine or system of moral conduct bplural : particular moral principles or rules of conduct
3: conformity to ideals of right human conduct
4: moral conduct : virtue



I posted these definitions because they have meaning in this debate. I saw an episode of NCIS a while back and a question was asked what is the difference between a ethical person and a moral person. The Answer was something like this. an Ethical man knows its wrong to cheat on his wife but does it anyway, and a moral man will NOT cheat on his wife.

I thought about this difference as it applies to most Cops. I have pondered this a lot over the last few days. I feel that a majority of Cops are ethical people, but remember what I said before this just means they know they are wrong when they violate someones rights or stand by when another officer does it. Because the general public can't tell the difference between ethical and moral they give Cops a pass, but fail to understand Cops on average ARE NOT MORAL.


Does a Cop who is beating someone bloody think they are right in doing so, or wrong? I think most Cops know this behaver is wrong, but because of the culture of Law Enforcement they just don't care, and because a Cop knows the difference said cop will begin to cover up this behaver, and start hiding behind statements like "well something has to be done to remove scum like this from our society". Cops hide in the ethics of Law Enforcement knowing full well the public will support them.

A moral Cop will not do this, and will not stand by and let it happen.

So I have a question for all you Cops that visit this forum.
Are you an ethical Cop or a Moral Cop?

[MGMAN]

I would also like to add something to my previous post. Cops are the only people that can wreck your life, using the color of law. I know a man that married a Cops Ex, and from the time this Cop discovered their relationship till the day that couple moved out of the area this Cop harassed them. Several Speeding tickets were issued non deserved, etc etc. I know for a fact this Cop beat her while they were married because I saw the black eyes and the bruises. The other Cops in the Dept knew this was going on and NOT A ONE did anything to stop it! After their divorce this Cop would stalk her, still nothing was done!  So please don't give me that crap that there are a lot of good Cops because THERE IS NOT. Cops can do things to you a citizen under color of the law that NOBODY else can do, the Courts and the upper management of the Dept's WILL NOT do anything till it becomes a public relations problem, then they will act and then try to reassure the public its just a tiny percentage that does it. NO its not a tiny percentage that does it, because if you are a Cop and let this go on you are PART OF THE PROBLEM!!!!!

[SamIam]

Ian, sounds like an excellent opportunity for both parties to come to a greater understanding. Do you think he would let me ride along sometime during porcfest? I'm not sure there would be much going on during a week night, but I think the conversation would be excellent. Then I might be able to do the same with one of the departments in DFW, to contrast the differences.

[ReverendRyan]

Ian, sounds like an excellent opportunity for both parties to come to a greater understanding. Do you think he would let me ride along sometime during porcfest? I'm not sure there would be much going on during a week night, but I think the conversation would be excellent. Then I might be able to do the same with one of the departments in DFW, to contrast the differences.

In Dallas and the northern burbs, you tend to need to be politically connected. Contact the PDs in some of the southern burbs (Cedar Hill, Grand Prairie, Duncanville, etc.), they tend to be more amiable guys overall.

[David]

Something I would like folks here to think about.  What is your goal.  What do you hope to achieve. 
My answer to my own question would be this;  I want to see people not get hurt.  Watching the police was initially to try to deter misconduct.  But moreso, I would like the legal hurting to stop.  The drug war in particular, but other forms as well, such as revenue so called 'safety' laws etc.  I think one of the ways to achieve that is to get the police to choose not to enforce those laws.  Maybe more effective, is to encourage 'ineffectiveness' in their daily routines.  (safer for the individuals officers job security as well).  Much like a jury nulification, an officer that will not enforce a victimless law (I consider threatening someone to be an act of creating a victim, and would not oppose enforcement in this scenario), has essentually nullified the law. 
For that to happen, we need to win the minds, of those involved, along with refusals to comply with fines, bail outs, and other forms of civil disobediance. 
I realize there is great hostility to the police, among many of the forum members, but please treat them as individuals, and keep focused on long term success.  Hostility when warrented is okay, but is not useful two when trying to encourage noncompliance. 
I have had two Keene police officers tell me they want to keep people safe, I agree with that overall focus.  Where we disagree is what is neccessary to do that, that is where I will focus my energy on. 

[MGMAN]

I am not quite sure why anybody would want to do a ride a long with a Cop, but that's just me I guess. I think my major question would be what do you think you will accomplish? A better understanding of the profession? I have a suggestion for you take a ride with the wife beater cop I wrote about in my last post, I am sure if you ride long enough you might even start thinking hitting your spouse is something great to do.  Someone very wise told me a long time ago that the best lie is a lie with enough truth in it to make it palatable, be careful you might be surprised just how easy it is to start thinking most of the crap Cops do is OK and justified. I also think if you want to ride a long watch Cops or view the thousands of videos posted online, as for me I have better things to do with my time

[highline]

I believe that many of you would be very enlightened to see the level of professionalism that New Hampshire law enforcement generally possesses. Our state has one of the most strict regulatory boards when it comes to our ability to serve in the capacity as a law enforcement officer. The agency is called Police Standards and Training Council and in addition to individual officers answering to their respective employing governmental units we also answer to the Council. I heard not long ago that New Hampshire was a leading state for revoking police certifications for unprofessional conduct. I credit the Council for making New Hampshire law enforcement some of the most professional in the country.

And, as the Lieutenant stated, the background investigation process is quite intense.

Short story long: I believe you all would be very impressed with the professionalism found in our states policing. I encourage you all to see it first hand.

[highline]

http://www.pstc.nh.gov/

[MGMAN]

I believe that many of you would be very enlightened to see the level of professionalism that New Hampshire law enforcement generally possesses. Our state has one of the most strict regulatory boards when it comes to our ability to serve in the capacity as a law enforcement officer. The agency is called Police Standards and Training Council and in addition to individual officers answering to their respective employing governmental units we also answer to the Council. I heard not long ago that New Hampshire was a leading state for revoking police certifications for unprofessional conduct. I credit the Council for making New Hampshire law enforcement some of the most professional in the country.

And, as the Lieutenant stated, the background investigation process is quite intense.

Short story long: I believe you all would be very impressed with the professionalism found in our states policing. I encourage you all to see it first hand.

I know of at least 10 states and many city Dept's that make that same claim, and these states and cities have case after case of DOCUMENTED abuse of the public at the hands of police. If your state does not have a case it just means either its kept quiet or its just has not happened yet.

[SamIam]

Shane - I just caught up with all the posts. I'm coming up to NH June 8th-15th. Thank you for coming on here and sharing your views both personal and professional. I would love to ride along, bring my camera gear, and continue this discussion. Would Tuesday the 10th or Wednesday the 11th  work?

A couple of points on your comments:

If no one was hurt and no property damaged, did a crime actually occur?

Let's say a young man on a rocket-bike routinely does wheelies down your street at a high rate of speed. . . . Now you've got two dead five-year-olds because there was nothing to deter the driver until an actual crash.  That's a shitty consolation prize for the grieving parents.  Someone should have called the cops on him soon after reason failed.

I agree riding a wheelie at 50mph on a Saturday afternoon down my street when kids are out playing is a bad idea. However I think the issue your addressing is one of public ownership of the roads. Government by design is not motivated to care in the same way a private property owner. How many times do you think this guy would be able to ride wheelies across the parking lot at Wal-Mart? They would do whatever it take to ensure the safety of their customers and surrounding community, because they want to keep making money. The problem would solve it's self.

The other problem with government, is one size MUST fit all. So while driving down the road at 80mph in rush hour traffic is unsafe, doing so at 3:50am on Tuesday, on a flat straight 3mi stretch of 4-lane highway that is completely deserted, is much safer. Again, because government doesn't have any incentive to innovate, we still have speed limit sights that stay the same regardless of the time of day (ok they somewhat have this one), traffic conditions, weather, my vechicle''s capabilities, etc. In the hands of private individuals seeking a profit and competing with other forms of transportation the roads would likely look very different.

Regarding Kevin Dean's questions, and again these are my opinions:

4.) How does he feel about armed citizens? Given that police enforce victimless crimes AND the populace is entitled to be armed, what does he think PERSONALLY is the best way to keep law enforcement safe - ending the drug war or disarming the citizenry?[/i]  -  Personally, I'm all for armed citizens, I'm aware of a couple incidents where they've been armed and held their own until we got there.  All I want is for them to use their heads when we DO get there (because we ARE coming) and instead of waving the pistol around shouting about their 2nd Amendment rights, just do what we tell you until we sort it all out.  In both cases I'm thinking of, the citizens were in the right, did basically what we told them to do when we got there, and walked away with happy endings, bad guys arrested and them free to fieldstrip and clean their pistols to their hearts content (and the one guy free to reload the two rounds he had fired).  I'm all for the 2nd Amendment.  Open carry trash pickup?  Good for you.  Now, as a courtesy perhaps you'd let us know because there will be citizens (there are those who fear the gun, even when it's sitting on the coffee table) who call us all in a tizzy and I'd like to be able to tell them "Don't worry about it...it's all good, and their cleaning your street up."  Last year (or the year before) there was a fellow mowing his lawn in a heavily residential area packing a nice 1911.  That was cool.

This was answered, but police are trained to take control of the situation to ensure their safety. In my experience, this approach often goes too far, and police over respond with an undue use of force, attitude, etc. When police are not forced into their current role, much of this would be unnecessary.


Thanks for taking part in the discussion, you can let me know about the ride along here or via private message, and if it's a go, I'll give you a call to work out the details.

Samiam