Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?

[SamIam]

I believe that many of you would be very enlightened to see the level of professionalism that New Hampshire law enforcement generally possesses. Our state has one of the most strict regulatory boards when it comes to our ability to serve in the capacity as a law enforcement officer. . ..

Highline - I think returning the title of peace officer would be another step in the right direction. The titles, "Law Enforcement Officer" and "Peace Officer" have a completely different context and set and spell out very different roles in society.

[highline]

I believe that many of you would be very enlightened to see the level of professionalism that New Hampshire law enforcement generally possesses. Our state has one of the most strict regulatory boards when it comes to our ability to serve in the capacity as a law enforcement officer. . ..

Highline - I think returning the title of peace officer would be another step in the right direction. The titles, "Law Enforcement Officer" and "Peace Officer" have a completely different context and set and spell out very different roles in society.

I completely agree Sam. Interestingly, the New Hampshire RSA'S use the term "peace officer" mixed with "law enforcement officer" in various sections of law. I am sure that for those who engage in political discourse, which I respect is not the purpose of this forum, would have an easy time pushing to change the term used in our laws.

[kola]

So I have a question for all you Cops that visit this forum.
Are you an ethical Cop or a Moral Cop?

you missed this question highline.

Kola

[K. Darien Freeheart]

Problem is if you see a brother or sister officer do it, ( or for that matter anything that violates their oaths) most Cops will circle the wagons and start covering up.

Let me point out that I feel the exact opposite. I don't think people, cops or otherwise, routinely cover up behavior they think is unethical. What incentive does highfield (as an example) have to cover up Shane's (another example) misconduct?

No, what I see as "the problem" is that too few people (though in this discussion, I'll focus on LEO) see "enforcement of law" as "force". Anybody who's actually have a conversation about taxes with a regular person who would understand this grave disconnect.

Q: "Are taxes theft?"
A: "No! Of course not."
Q: "Why do you pay taxes?"
A. "You have to pay taxes."
Q: "Why do you have to pay taxes? What if you don't?"
A: "You go to jail if you don't."
Q: "And what if you resist going to jail?"
A: "Oh, you don't wanna do that! They'll tackle you and drag you off to jail anyway."

Do I think that the law enforcement is "the problem"... No. In many ways I see law enforcement officers as victims themselves of the brainwashing of government. The idea that police are needed to "keep order" is itself a symptom of that. That LEO's don't see a traffic stop of a speeder as "threat of force" is what I consider to be the problem. It is something that I think can be corrected over time (otherwise things like the FSP can't succeed) by respectful discourse and simply living free. On the other side of that, just because you're a victim too doesn't mean that perpetuating the system makes it's impact any less real.

[MGMAN]

Problem is if you see a brother or sister officer do it, ( or for that matter anything that violates their oaths) most Cops will circle the wagons and start covering up.

Let me point out that I feel the exact opposite. I don't think people, cops or otherwise, routinely cover up behavior they think is unethical. What incentive does highfield (as an example) have to cover up Shane's (another example) misconduct?

No, what I see as "the problem" is that too few people (though in this discussion, I'll focus on LEO) see "enforcement of law" as "force". Anybody who's actually have a conversation about taxes with a regular person who would understand this grave disconnect.

Q: "Are taxes theft?"
A: "No! Of course not."
Q: "Why do you pay taxes?"
A. "You have to pay taxes."
Q: "Why do you have to pay taxes? What if you don't?"
A: "You go to jail if you don't."
Q: "And what if you resist going to jail?"
A: "Oh, you don't wanna do that! They'll tackle you and drag you off to jail anyway."

Do I think that the law enforcement is "the problem"... No. In many ways I see law enforcement officers as victims themselves of the brainwashing of government. The idea that police are needed to "keep order" is itself a symptom of that. That LEO's don't see a traffic stop of a speeder as "threat of force" is what I consider to be the problem. It is something that I think can be corrected over time (otherwise things like the FSP can't succeed) by respectful discourse and simply living free. On the other side of that, just because you're a victim too doesn't mean that perpetuating the system makes it's impact any less real.

We will have to agree to disagree I am afraid. I feel law Enforcement is the arm of the Government on all levels Federal, State and local. When this "arm" comes into contact with the public thats when problems occur. As for Police "keeping order" for the most part just the threat of Police is enough to keep the general public in line.  As for your taxes example I could add look at what happened at Ruby Ridge and Waco that was 2 examples of Law Enforcement run amock. I feel also the need to again say I am not anti-Cop I just think that until the quality of personnel thats hired, and the wages we pay them is improved we will ALWAYS have problems with this. Oh BTW when a Cop speeds when there is NO emergency, uses his lights to bypass a red light ( I have saw this done many times) , AND looks the other way when a brother/sister officer does, they are violating their oaths.  Cops are not hired to select the Laws they will enforce, THEY ARE HIRED TO FAIRLY AND FIRMLY ENFORCE ALL LAWS AND IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO VIOLATES THEM.

[highline]

heres one I dislike.

The sobriety test (in the field).

It is practically impossible to pass.

Kola

Actually, lots of people pass them.  You should research some of the tests online and try them out in your driveway, they're actually not that difficult.

I would say 1 out of 5 people pass the standardized field sobriety tests that we perform.

As a general practice... if someone has been consuming alcohol we ask them to perform tests so that we can be sure that they are not a danger to the motoring public and or driving unlawfully while intoxicated.

[Coconut]

heres one I dislike.

The sobriety test (in the field).

It is practically impossible to pass.

Kola

Actually, lots of people pass them.  You should research some of the tests online and try them out in your driveway, they're actually not that difficult.

I would say 1 out of 5 people pass the standardized field sobriety tests that we perform.

As a general practice... if someone has been consuming alcohol we ask them to perform tests so that we can be sure that they are not a danger to the motoring public and or driving unlawfully while intoxicated.

However, what comes into play in these tests is what comes up a lot: The police assuming you're guilty until you prove yourself innocent. They are looking for you to fail, so your test is  under the strictest scrutiny. Couple that with the natural nervousness of being put to a sobriety test, and I think you will have a lot of people fail that are still safe drivers. I do not condone any sort of impaired driving, just speaking from another perspective.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

As for your taxes example I could add look at what happened at Ruby Ridge and Waco that was 2 examples of Law Enforcement run amock.

I don't think we disagree on the symptoms. I agree with everything you've put forward. The difference to me is that I don't see Waco as "Let's run in and kill the weirdos because we have the power to do it and get away with it." Put simply, I beleive those agents (or at least a good majority of them) actually considered force to be the only viable solution there. The difference as I see it is that if we can get people (the public AND law enforcement) to recognize some of the actions they take for granted as BEING FORCE the number of police officers willing to do it would decrease. I can't believe that the number of human beings who seek to harm others is so great at all cops, or even a super majority of them, are blood thirsty and out for pray.

Though, I suppose in some ways it's kind of irrelevant because for whatever reasons we both really want the same thing in the end.

The example the Lieutenant referenced of someone being taken behind the K-Mart and physically abused is simply something that strikes me as being completely out of the realm of possibility here in New Hampshire.

I'm glad you brought that up again. Coconut asked a question earlier on this thread about how to best interact with officers during a stop. I'd like to pose a similar question in all seriousness. You believe that this is so statistically unlikely to happen in New Hampshire that dwelling on it is misleading. Fair enough. But let us assume for a moment that the planets aligned in the right way... The ONE officer who MIGHT snap DID. If an officer of the KPD WERE assaulting someone on duty, what would you suggest that the person being assaulted do? In the admittedly RARE case of police brutality, what should someone do?

Now what about in Washington DC or Detroit, where the likelyhood of police brutality is signifigantly higher?

[highline]

heres one I dislike.

The sobriety test (in the field).

It is practically impossible to pass.

Kola

Actually, lots of people pass them.  You should research some of the tests online and try them out in your driveway, they're actually not that difficult.

I would say 1 out of 5 people pass the standardized field sobriety tests that we perform.

As a general practice... if someone has been consuming alcohol we ask them to perform tests so that we can be sure that they are not a danger to the motoring public and or driving unlawfully while intoxicated.

However, what comes into play in these tests is what comes up a lot: The police assuming you're guilty until you prove yourself innocent. They are looking for you to fail, so your test is  under the strictest scrutiny. Couple that with the natural nervousness of being put to a sobriety test, and I think you will have a lot of people fail that are still safe drivers. I do not condone any sort of impaired driving, just speaking from another perspective.

That is a good point.

A problem I see with new police officers is that they are afraid to let people drive away who have alcohol on their breath.  I believe a big reason for this is because the words "civil liability" are drilled into a police recruits head at the police academy.  This results in many people getting arrested for DWI who should not be.

We have a standardized testing procedure which is used nationwide.  We have three tests:

1. Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus (the pen in front of the eyes)
2. Walk and Turn
3. One Leg Stand

Each test has a certain number of clues assigned to it and after numerous scientific studies done it has been proven that if a person exhibits two clues on any of the three tests that their blood alcohol content will be %0.10 or higher.  The HGN test has six clues, Walk and Turn eight, and One Leg Stand four.

Of course there are people who are "professional" drunks who can pass these tests.  This is why many other things are taken into account.  Becoming proficient at DWI detection is something that comes with time and experience.

I believe that DWI penalties should be severe.  Much more severe than they are now.

[J’raxis 270145]

Kola,

I do not know you, but your reactions and name calling in a perfectly civil conversation simply shows how unreasonable and judgemental you are.

You did the same to me when I gave you an honest and respectful answer. It seems as if unless you hear the exact words you want in a response that the person responding to you is automatically "scum." That is very inept.   

Look at any of his posts anywhere: more of the same.

I simply cannot take him seriously as he is acting childish.

Painting an entire group with a broad brush because of specific bad examples (check out this and this thread), then throwing histrionic, juvenile fits when people challenge him, is a Kola trademark.

[Coconut]

Discipline, insofar as it is applied to police employees, is supposed to be progressive. Meaning that if Trooper Bird had nothing negative in his employment file this situation could largely be looked at as a father who got emotional while trying to protect his child. If the Trooper had a history of outbursts such as this it could warrant more severe punishment.

Does that answer your question?

I do not know Trooper Bird, but am willing to bet his reaction is uncharacteristic of his personality. People get very emotional when it comes to their children. For better or for worse.

This sounds like a reasonable answer given the information on the case. The officer should be charged for the cost of any damage, but the judge is reasonable to let him be free for a momentary loss of control in an emotional issue.

[highline]

Discipline, insofar as it is applied to police employees, is supposed to be progressive. Meaning that if Trooper Bird had nothing negative in his employment file this situation could largely be looked at as a father who got emotional while trying to protect his child. If the Trooper had a history of outbursts such as this it could warrant more severe punishment.

Does that answer your question?

I do not know Trooper Bird, but am willing to bet his reaction is uncharacteristic of his personality. People get very emotional when it comes to their children. For better or for worse.

This sounds like a reasonable answer given the information on the case. The officer should be charged for the cost of any damage, but the judge is reasonable to let him be free for a momentary loss of control in an emotional issue.

I have always been impressed with the temperment that most judges have around here. Most are very professional and put up with quite a bit of rudeness.

[kola]

behind the scenes in the copworld:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G63FEamhpA0&feature=related

[srqrebel]

This is the first time I opened this thread, and unfortunately right now I don't have time to read it in its entirety.

I did read the first four pages or so, and must say Shane's reasonable attitude and rationality are impressive.

I might be interested in doing a ride-along later on. My schedule is pretty well tied up for the next couple of weeks, though.

[FTL_Ian]

MGMAN's off topic discussion has been split off:
http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=13920.0