3rd Annual Jaffrey Live Free or Die Celebration & Forum

[Pokerbass]

Hi Rich,

I'll try my best to address your concerns.  You raised a couple issues that you feel we endorse or promote.  I hope this gives you a better idea of where we stand.

- WLLPP - never heard of them until this exchange.  Can't say I would support theirs or any party as I don't tend to subscribe to the group think mentality.  However, the article you cite does show that there are diverse groups clamoring for the same things. I pointed that out in a previous reply.  As far as I'm concerned, you can look at this article two ways.  You can nitpick on the smaller issue of white pride/separatism being addressed and consider that a problem.  You can then turn your head and ignore the problem, but, that does not make it go away.   Or, you can absorb the material and realize that there are people, different from yourself, who see that this so called "two-party system" isn't working and an alternative is being presented.  Is there a reason why you automatically gravitate to the small negative instead of the greater positive?  I guess there is also a 3rd point of view, and that would be to assume that anyone reading or reposting the article must be in agreement with all it's content.  Sorry, but, I can't see how shooting the messenger accomplishes anything other than demonstrating a narrow point of view.   

- Holocaust as a hoax - I've also addressed this one in a previous reply.  But, let me expound.  We've never denied that this was a horrible atrocity.  We've never cried out for a repeat of what happened.  But, we have seen alot of opportunists cloak themselves in this event to push an agenda or further their own greed.  Scholars and historians, both Jew and Gentile, have raised questions about historical accuracy and the sincerity of those who profit from it.  Did you know that the Red Cross has revised their numbers to well under 1 million Jews who died in the Holocaust.  Is the Red Cross now an anti-semitic organization that should be rounded up and thrown in jail?  Should the scholars and historians who challenge the "official story" be sitting in jail for nothing more than expressing an opinion?  Maybe you think jailing people for their thoughts is ok.  If so, you best not think anything ill of Homeland Security.  It might not be in your best interest.


- 911 - Does anyone know exactly what happened that day?  The Commission Report is a travesty and there are credible reports of Israeli involvement.  I am not saying I know there was Israeli involvement.  But, how can you rule this out without any consideration. For all we know, Lichtenstein may have financed the whole operation.  However, no serious investigation on the part of the US government has ever produced anything but distractions and more questions.

- Satanic Jewish conspiracy - I do believe there are satanic forces at work in this world.  I do believe there are people that conspire to undermine this country in a push for global governance.  I do believe that there are dual loyalist individuals in very powerful positions of government and business that are shaping American policies.  Are they all related?  I can't say for sure.  But, I will not find the answers to those questions by burying my head in the sand. 

Let me cut to the chase.  On a personal level, it seems that you are concerned with controversial topics that should be avoided at all costs.  Certain words should not be spoken above a whisper.  This is fool-hardy.  You're giving in to Pavlov.  As Paul Harvey has shown us, history tells us much, but then there's the rest of the story.  If you want to live in a black and white world, regurgitated through mass media, so be it.  But, there is a whole spectrum of color and opinions that are relevant to our world.   

From my history of following FSP, the original intent was to draw a large number of people to NH so that a concerted voting block could effect political change in the state.  Obviously, the organization recognizes that something isn't working with the status quo.   Through efforts such as PorcFest, the Liberty Forum and other endeavors, you're educating people.  You're providing another view in which to consider, among other things, how state politics and self governance can be executed in a just manner.  And, I applaud you for these efforts. The rub comes when you fail to listen (and I mean really listen) to what others say.  By denigrating another group of educators and activists, and purposefully acting to keep them out of your state, you have become what you, and others on this board, rail against - spreading false propaganda and isolating yourself.

As for my cohort, Mr Paul Topete, aka pokerkid, whom I did confirm were one in the same in a previous post (I'm beginning to think you read as well as you listen), the only thing I can apologize for is that he may not be as eloquent or good looking as yours truly.  If you're looking for me to apologize for the initial exchange between you two, that is not my place.  However, I will say that I do not blame him for being harsh when it was you who fired the first salvo.  If you want to calm those waters, that is your decision to make.  You pulled the lion's tail.  Don't expect the lion tamer to have pity on you.

Rich, I can accept your sensitivity to these controversial topics.  And, I can accept your stance of not inviting our band to your events.  What really bothers me, though, is that you intiated this public witch hunt at the expense of an innocent third party.  I don't know if you have fully grasped the repercussions of your actions.  But, I hope you can find the humility to do what is right to correct the situation.

To bring this all around, let me state the following in case it didn't set in.

We are not racist - but racism does exist.  Posting their articles or interacting with these people to effect positive change does not make us racists.  Actually, it would seem that we would be the poster child of tolerance that some people clamor for.

We are not anti-semitic - but anti-semitism does exist.  Exposing the crimes committed by Israeli diplomats and people of Jewish faith, just like every other country and race of people, is not a condemnation of the whole.  If a crime is committed by a Jewish person, should I ignore it, or should I just call him Italian?

And, to conclude, let me say that these two isms are not the focus of our discussions with most folks from all walks of life. 

Thank you for listening. 
Dennis

[J’raxis 270145]

So what's up with all this stuff in that email that was posted earlier?

1st - What is the representation of jews on the FSP board?
Is there an over representation of dual loyalist jews, as it is in many other organizations that love freedom. Where said organization starts to do good, then later dual loyalists are elected, then all of a sudden said effort starts to fizzle, because of these judas goats working against it inside. FSP is currently NOT meeting their goals of people moving to NH, Et Tu Brute Rich? I can tell you of dozens of movements and organizations where this has happened time and time again. Ron Pauls 2008 Revolution is just the latest to get derailed. The revolutionary sayanim is right smack in the middle of it all.

Rich, are you only sensitive to jewish issues, because everything you listed in the email below as offensive to FSP has to do solely with posts/categories exposing the crimes of the criminal jew. (I said CRIMINAL JEW not all jews) One of the writers you happen to chose is a Canadien jew by the name of Henry Makow, who has no problem exposing jewish crimes and criminals. But henry must be a self hater. Obviously you didn?t read the piece he wrote, only the sensationalism of the title?  http://pokerface.org/fx/viewtopic.php?t=5486

...

If I had taken your attitude of protecting criminal illegal-Mexicans in writing this email to Poker Face, I would be telling them that all of their anti-illegal immigration posts
http://pokerface.org/fx/viewforum.php?f=28
are RACIST and SUPREMACIST, & that Poker Face are a bunch of Minute-Klanners etc..? oh yeah that?s right, I have gotten called those names too, because of my AMERICAN FIRST actions. But instead I get a shitty little email like the one you wrote to me, whining about how we?re haters and anti-semites for what we allow to be posted on our forum. Grow the fuck up.
Now I find out that you are going out of your way to fuck up other events and relationship.

Quick question? Are you American First or are you JEW first. If you want me to see you color blind, then act like an American Firster, and stop covering for jews who are criminals, for that?s all we do. By you being offended by the articles posted, tells me what side of freedom YOU choose to be on ? the half truthers side. We don?t care what the truth is, no matter how ugly it may be against our own favorite groups, or against the grain of our programmed ? education. Truth is always paramount., and as well should be for EVERYONE else.

...

Anyone obsessing so much over Jews is going to have a damned hard time convincing me he's not an anti-semite. And anyone going on about "criminal illegal-Mexicans" and calling themselves an American Firster is ripe for ostracism in my opinion.

Reading through all of the recent posts, I also believe now that PokerFace (the band, as a whole) isn't racist, anti-semitic, or anything similar. It seems the PokerFace forum simply has boards to allow the discussion of controversial and taboo subjects that often attract the attention of outright racists. Back when I paid attention to international politics, I was firmly on the anti-Israeli/pro-Palestinian side of that particular debate, so I'm all too familiar with the mainstream smearing such positions as "anti-semitic"—and genuine anti-semites trying to cloak themselves as mere anti-Zionists. I think both phenomena are going on here.

As for Paul Topete—I think the email speaks for itself.

[umbc_libertarian]

Dennis, I'm reminded of the saying that the cover up or excusing of bad things is often worse than the thing itself.  I think this applies to the topic of Poker Face and your choice of how to respond:

Rather than saying that these postings were poor judgment or simply a desire to laugh at or mock their content; you divert our discussion by a red-herring and a straw-man about freedom of speech which was never the issue (it's about association) and become an apologist for Paul and the content he's posted. 

Rather than say that you'll reform your forum so that at least at first glance it does not appear to be a forum for holocaust deniers and anti-Semites, you spend your time trying to defend its current structure and content. 

Rather than stating that Paul's emails are out of line and his forum comments (e.g. "no society can flourish in which the Jew feels at ease.") seriously disturb you; you challenge me as inviting them and being sensitive.

Rather than appreciating that instead of letting rumors and accusations spread about Poker Face (which was what was going on by people other than myself) I brought the issue up so you could defend yourselves; you assail me despite the fact that I only brought this up to the parties directly involved and it was Jean and Paul who expanded the sphere of the recipients. 

Rather than objecting to Paul's pattern of posting articles by holocaust revisionists (I'll use the lighter term instead of deniers to be more inclusive) and racists; you post ridiculous claims about a red cross report which cannot be found (and is easily contradicted by the red cross' holocaust site and numerous studies validating the 5.1 - 5.9 million number) and present the White Liberationist Libertarian Political Party with its stated platform as just another party that people should know about.   

Rather than post to your forum any of the abundant evidence and guides online for the current understanding of the holocaust (for at least a more balanced discussion); you seems okay with having a nice echo chamber and the people that attracts. 

Rather than question (or be appalled) that no other country besides Israel is targeted on your forum as the organizer of a false-flag operation or a nefarious role in 911 (what about Iran, Russia, North Korea, an anti-Muslim Christian Conspiracy, or anyone else?); you claim "credible reports" (which of course are ignored by reputable authorities) and hide behind the defense of "well, no one really knows." 

Rather than rejecting outright age-old anti-Semitic charges of rampant dual/dis-loyalty by Jews in authority, an international conspiracy, an ability to obfuscate and manipulate the truth, and other classics; you appear to accept them at least as possibilities worthy of focus and examination if not largely true facts about the world. 

Rather than having any positive discussion about the innumerable contributions of Jews and Judaism to society and humanity or providing Jewish sources when discussing Judaism simply as a counter balance to the vilification, fear, uncertainty, and doubt promoted; your forum focuses on the "criminal Jew," (the crime(s) I'm still not aware about), and negative aspects of Judaism. 

Rather than not labeling people (especially when they do bad things unrepresentative of the group) and treating them as individuals; you defend identifying Jews / Jewish criminals but seem unconcerned about not labeling White Anglo-Saxon Protestant President Bush, Black/African-American Christian Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, or anyone else. 

Rather than showing concern and responding to the fact that your forum attracts undesirable people, both to your forum and your gigs, and therefore provides ample opportunity to rightly or wrongly label/smear those who positively associate with your band; you act like this is no big deal and is the problem of those who would be (rightly) put off. 

I can go on, but I think you get the point.  Actions or, in this case, lack of actions speak louder than your apologist writings.  It's your band, your forum, your choices.  Choose or deny whatever label you like, but the evidence and your reactions are now out there.  People can judge for themselves.

[jaqeboy]

So, who else will volunteer to help Jean put on a great event?

He invites early campers and wants to have a coordinating meeting for all of the volunteers Friday evening.

I'll post more details on that in a bit, but if you're the volunteering kind, please contact Jean at: Caacp01@aol.com - he's gone way out on a limb with this one and this can be an event that Porcs can really show their stuff at.

[FTL_Ian]

I can go on, but I think you get the point.  Actions or, in this case, lack of actions speak louder than your apologist writings.  It's your band, your forum, your choices.  Choose or deny whatever label you like, but the evidence and your reactions are now out there.  People can judge for themselves.

Nuff said. 

[Russell Kanning]

Nice flash of your activism cred, but you're still in a band and moderate a forum with a bigoted nationalist homophobe (not racist), and you're unapologetic about it.  The jury is still out on your beliefs, but you appear to at least be a nationalist.

there will be lots of nationalists at this event

[AnarcSyn]

Patriotism: i love my country
Nationalism: my country can beat up your country
Imperialism: here we come now

Juan whatshisname posted that a few years ago on Reason.com

btw, will there be good burgers at this get together?  i loves a good burger

[FTL_Ian]

Nice flash of your activism cred, but you're still in a band and moderate a forum with a bigoted nationalist homophobe (not racist), and you're unapologetic about it.  The jury is still out on your beliefs, but you appear to at least be a nationalist.

there will be lots of nationalists at this event

Nationalism is curable, but bigotry - I'm not so sure.

[BillKauffman]

Patriotism: i love my country
Nationalism: my country can beat up your country
Imperialism: here we come now

You are using a narrow definition of "nationalism" - nationalism can also be based on race, gender, religion, etc. (Nation of Islam for instance).

This is how national-anarchists use the term as I cited above.

[BillKauffman]

Patriotism: i love my country
Nationalism: my country can beat up your country
Imperialism: here we come now

You are using a narrow definition of "nationalism" - nationalism can also be based on race, gender, religion, etc. (Nation of Islam for instance).

This is how national-anarchists use the term as I cited above.

Ian would be a Nationalist if Keene left NH and formed a separate nation. He would think Keene was better the the US, and he would be right

Me thinks he would be against any borders.

But certainly he could be called a "national-anarchist" if he wanted an autonomous region of voluntaryists in the Keene area (shire for those annointed) to be left alone from any outside influences or force.

Although he might have trouble wearing the label as National-Anarchists apparently see the hierarchies inherent in the state and capitalism as equally oppressive.

[AnarcSyn]

"see the hierarchies inherent in the state"   ...  hmmm  ..  isn't that a line from a Monty Python flick?

anyway  ...  what about the burgers?  will there be burgers at this little gathering?

oh, and will any folks from the northeast anarchist network be there?

[FTL_Ian]

Ian would be a Nationalist if Keene left NH and formed a separate nation. He would think Keene was better the the US, and he would be right

Nations are a fantasy, like Santy Claus.

[Friday]

anyway  ...  what about the burgers?  will there be burgers at this little gathering?

Last year there were burgers for sale.  I assume they'll be doing that again this year.

[Pokerbass]

Rich, I thought long and hard about whether to continue this exchange.  In the end, I felt that there needed to be further clarification because there is still anger (not hate) on both sides.  This will be the last I post on this issue, mostly because I do not wish to distract from the discussion and support of LFOD.  Rest assured, we do not hate you.  We are extremely pissed off at your treatment of Poker Face as a representative of Free State Project, though.

Dennis, I'm reminded of the saying that the cover up or excusing of bad things is often worse than the thing itself.  I think this applies to the topic of Poker Face and your choice of how to respond:

Hello, pot?  It's kettle ...

Rather than saying that these postings were poor judgment or simply a desire to laugh at or mock their content; you divert our discussion by a red-herring and a straw-man about freedom of speech which was never the issue (it's about association) and become an apologist for Paul and the content he's posted. 

It was about association for you.  By the time we were given a chance to voice our defense, I was finding posts like Ian's letter to Jean and facing accusations of raging racism.  The freedom of speech / censorship became a part of that discussion.  You are absolutely correct that you are free to associate with who you wish.  And, I've said I'm fine with that.  This goes beyond FSP's right of free association to the point of telling others who they should associate with. 

Rather than say that you'll reform your forum so that at least at first glance it does not appear to be a forum for holocaust deniers and anti-Semites, you spend your time trying to defend its current structure and content. 

Rich, your arrogance and ignorance is showing.  There are 41 folders on our forum to choose from.  One is devoted to questioning the holocaust (might I remind you that there were many others holocausts suffering hundreds of millions, if not billions, of casualities at the hands of oppressive governments - one that is estimated at 20,000,000 Christians - and that doesn't include the one that you and I both could very well witness if we don't look past this petty bullshit and focus on our own out of control government).  This one folder, out of 41, is what you are bitching about.  With everything from music to archaeology to all things freedom related, this one folder contains roughly 1.6% of the posts on our board.  There are more posts under "Alternate Energy." You are making a stink about 1.6% of what we discuss.

Rather than stating that Paul's emails are out of line and his forum comments (e.g. "no society can flourish in which the Jew feels at ease.") seriously disturb you; you challenge me as inviting them and being sensitive.

We went through this already.  THOSE ARE NOT PAUL'S WORDS!!!  My challenge to you is to LISTEN to what PAUL says.  And, for that matter, listen to what I say.  How many questions did I have to respond to multiple times because you weren't paying attention? And, yet, there are numerous questions I have posed to you that have gone unanswered.

Rather than appreciating that instead of letting rumors and accusations spread about Poker Face (which was what was going on by people other than myself) I brought the issue up so you could defend yourselves; you assail me despite the fact that I only brought this up to the parties directly involved and it was Jean and Paul who expanded the sphere of the recipients. 

You're trying to make it sound like you were our friggin buddy for stirring this shit up.  By your own admission, you started the ball rolling.  You gave us no chance to defend ourselves.  Instead of coming to us directly to hear our case, your actions raised havoc at the expense of both our names and at the cost of the Live Free or Die Celebration.  And, I'm supposed to be greatful?  There are way more than enough agent provocateurs trying to divide the groups who seek liberty and freedom from tyranny without your help.  Not only do I not consider you a buddy, but, now a threat to the credibility of the Free State Project.  Do the rest of the organization a favor and walk away before you do any more damage in their name.

Rather than objecting to Paul's pattern of posting articles by holocaust revisionists (I'll use the lighter term instead of deniers to be more inclusive) and racists; you post ridiculous claims about a red cross report which cannot be found (and is easily contradicted by the red cross' holocaust site and numerous studies validating the 5.1 - 5.9 million number) and present the White Liberationist Libertarian Political Party with its stated platform as just another party that people should know about.   

When I'm wrong, I'm willing to admit it.  In haste, I threw the Red Cross factoid out there from memory and it was incorrect.  I'm sorry for that mistake.  I did happen to find the correct information with very little trouble.  In true debate fashion, let's see
where each other stands.  I accept the possibility that your 5.1 - 5.9 million may be correct.  But, what source could I view to see how this figure was determined?  I'll gladly consider your point of view.  What I was able to uncover was the International Red Cross audit from 1984 which quoted less than 1 million.  Maybe this has since been revised.  I also found a statement by Walter Reich, former director of the US Holocaust Museum in Washington. On September 8, 1998, The Washington Post quoted Reich as stating 1.1 - 1.5 million.  The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (Israel Gutman and Robert Rozet editors, Macmillan NY, 1990 Volume 4, Appendix pp. 1797-1803) challenges the 6 million number although I could not find an official estimate listed.  Please take note that these are credited historians (not revisionists or deniers) and publications that would seem to be considered expert resources in this field.  It should not diminish the fact that people died.  Whether it was 6 million, 1 million, or just 1, it truly sucks.  I just want to get the facts straight and not be slandered because I'm a stickler for accuracy. As for the WLLPP, I still don't give 2 shits about it.  There's most likely zero chance that this one person's concept will ever come to fruition.  I would hold the same view if it was the
Jewish Liberationist Libertarian Political Party. Unless they start screwing with me, or becoming a physical menace to society, I would be more interested in the things we have in common that can help improve all of our lives.  It's what Paul calls the 80% solution.  We all have 20% hardcore beliefs that we will probably never agree on.  Let's put that shit aside and focus on the common goal of stopping the tyranny that is going to make all of our lives a living hell.

Rather than post to your forum any of the abundant evidence and guides online for the current understanding of the holocaust (for at least a more balanced discussion); you seems okay with having a nice echo chamber and the people that attracts. 

I would think most people know the mainstream view.  As with most things on our board, we're providing the alternative to the mainstream since mainstream is either already known, watered down and/or often anything but "fair and balanced" to quote a certain mainstream news network.  However, I am open to suggestions.  Please feel free to pass information on.  But, give me info that has substance.  Give me something I haven't seen before.

Rather than question (or be appalled) that no other country besides Israel is targeted on your forum as the organizer of a false-flag operation or a nefarious role in 911 (what about Iran, Russia, North Korea, an anti-Muslim Christian Conspiracy, or anyone else?); you claim "credible reports" (which of course are ignored by reputable authorities) and hide behind the defense of "well, no one really knows." 

I did mention Lichtenstein.  nyuk nyuk nyuk.  However, once again, you have just proven that you have no knowledge of what is on our forum.  Many countries are discussed if you get your nose out of that one folder.  But, again I ask, is there a reason why we can't discuss the nation of Israel?  You seem darn good at demanding my response (several times), so, give me a straight answer for once.  If this is truly a forbidden sin, then I would expect you to take up your cause with Fox News because they filmed a 4 part series on Israel spying on America (which coincidentally was pulled from being broadcast).   You can check it out on YouTube or go to http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5133.htm - btw - I want to share with you the one point that left an impact on me after watching this.  And, it had nothing to do with Jewey, whitey, darkey, speckly or whatever sub category of human you want to focus on.  It was the fact that our telecommunications and wiretapping archives were compromised because we rely on foreign coding instead of training and developing these technologies in-house. For me the hot topic is government surveillance and loss of domestic security/prosperity due to international trade agreements.

Rather than rejecting outright age-old anti-Semitic charges of rampant dual/dis-loyalty by Jews in authority, an international conspiracy, an ability to obfuscate and manipulate the truth, and other classics; you appear to accept them at least as possibilities worthy of focus and examination if not largely true facts about the world. 

I tried to go easy on you with this one because I know this would be a touchy topic.  That was not fair.  Let me try to elaborate.  Are there Jewish conspirators? Yes.  Are any satanic? I don't know.  Studying secular resources and different interpretations of
both the Old and New Testament, there is a case for the existence of these groups.  But, even then, it does caution that this is not all inclusive.  Can I say that my take on it is absolute?  If anyone claimed such, they would prove themselves to be a fool.  Putting the theological discussion aside, do you believe in mafias?  There is the best known Italian, La Cosa Nostra, but, there are others - Russian, Jewish, etc.  Does that mean you are part of any of these cabals?  No. So, don't take it personally unless you want to be viewed as narrow minded or covering for criminals.  If such a group does exist, and you do not favor it, why wouldn't you want to see it abolished? Let's go real age-old, here.  There has been disloyalty, conspiracies and dirty tricks by all nations since the beginning of time.  Israel was not perfect.  As a nation, they too fell short in God's eyes.  But, of them all, the tribe of Judah was chosen.  Now, in this context, is the word "chosen" a verb or a noun?  Does chosen mean you sit back and reap all the rewards regardless of consequence?  Or, does it mean you were chosen to accomplish something and are still accountable for your actions?

Rather than having any positive discussion about the innumerable contributions of Jews and Judaism to society and humanity or providing Jewish sources when discussing Judaism simply as a counter balance to the vilification, fear, uncertainty, and doubt promoted; your forum focuses on the "criminal Jew," (the crime(s) I'm still not aware about), and negative aspects of Judaism. 

God, strike me dead if this isn't funny to somebody who reads it ... Oh yeah, great!!! Jews have given us actors, record executives, bankers and some whiny little bitch who thinks I hate everyone of his cousins.  Let's see, movies suck, I have no record deal,
the economy is tanking, and some whiny little bitch thinks I hate everyone of his cousins. ......... did I hit all the stereotypes?  .........  Seriously, though, do you see us giving anybody a big high five because of their heritage?  Any accolades that are given are because of deeds.  However, since you need this affirmation, it might make you feel better to know that we heavily promoted, assisted in the creation of and still contribute to a project put together by our good friend Mr. Weinstein.  We have had long talks with and give kudos to Barry Chamish, an author and longtime resident of Israel. Albert Einstein gave the world an enormous contribution, but, I'll probably get slammed because he also warned that there was a militant and corrupt faction that was trying to grasp control of the Israeli government.  Those who he warned us about, did come to power by the way.  What I find ironic is that most of the articles from our forum that you tried to hang us with, were written by Jews, exposing criminal Jews, yet you're still not aware of these criminal Jews.  Is it my fault that you didn't read the material yet again?

Rather than not labeling people (especially when they do bad things unrepresentative of the group) and treating them as individuals; you defend identifying Jews / Jewish criminals but seem unconcerned about not labeling White Anglo-Saxon Protestant President Bush, Black/African-American Christian Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, or anyone else. 

We also identify Jesuits, Rosicrucians, Catholics, Russians, Germans, Pakistanis, French, Canadians, Americans and more.  Whether you like it or not, there are groups of people who act in concert with each other.  YOU are selecting the one group to focus on.

Rather than showing concern and responding to the fact that your forum attracts undesirable people, both to your forum and your gigs, and therefore provides ample opportunity to rightly or wrongly label/smear those who positively associate with your band; you act like this is no big deal and is the problem of those who would be (rightly) put off. 

That's absolutely correct.  That's the exact type of judgmental thinking I'm trying to get through to you.  You are charging us with guilt by association and lumping yourself into the mix because you are so fixated on the smaller details and letting yourself be consumed by stereotypes.  You can't generalize like that. You have this idea in your head that supremacists are flocking to our forum, or, that there's a parade of Klansmen starting hate filled mosh pits at our shows.  Rich, we have the ability to reach out to a wide variety of people with a wide variety of beliefs and interests in order to get a better understanding of controversial topics.  We try to learn instead of ignore.  We try to do teach instead of judge.  If this is something you are unable to do, I'm sorry.  I've spent some time going back and reading everything that has transpired over the past week.  I also dug through some old posts from the FSP board and I believe the root of your hanging us out to dry is over two guys who showed up at PorcFest '05 who I didn't even know attended.  All I can say on that matter, if that is where this all stems from, is that the porcupines handled that conflict exactly right.  From what I've gathered, you handed them their hats and gave them the unwelcome boot out the door for making a scene at your event. Bravo!!! Most likely, they went back to their hive and let the rest of the brood know that PorcFest wasn't really their gig.  Out of the thousands and thousands of people we've interacted with, I'm genuinely sorry that two morons showed up who could not grasp FSP's concept or the fact that the band they thought was all about white-dom was half filled with members who are hispanic.  As I've said before, I can accept you not wanting the band at PorcFest for whatever reason.  We
never expected to be your "house band."  But, letting this fester for 3 years and then actively taking part in getting us pulled from another event with which we've had nothing but good relations, and no sign of racism, is deplorable.

I can go on, but I think you get the point.  Actions or, in this case, lack of actions speak louder than your apologist writings.  It's your band, your forum, your choices.  Choose or deny whatever label you like, but the evidence and your reactions are now out there.  People can judge for themselves.

Sheesh!!! This entire post of yours is based on trying to get me to apologize and then you call me an apologist.  We could have saved alot of time and bandwidth ;-)  Seriously, though, if I'm correct, you'll remember this encounter for a long time.  I hope it serves as a learning experience for you. My father once told me that the best way to learn is to fall flat on your face.  I think you'll be pulling gravel out of your cheeks for quite awhile.  Part of me wants to believe that you acted out of ignorance of youth.  Part of me feels that you lashed out because of personal sensitivity without fully understanding the views of our band and its individual members.  Part of me doubts you have any sincerity and intentionally tried to silence or divide the groups within the freedom
movement. We have seen this happen several times before.  Only you truly know what is in your heart and head.  For the rest of your life, you're going to come across people and organizations that you do not agree with.  As great as the FSP concept is, New Hampshire will never have some utopian bubble surrounding it, keeping it free from conflicting personal views or from interacting with unsavory groups that exist locally, nationally or globally.  As the phrase goes, knowledge is power.  Having an understanding of those who are different from yourself and identifying those who wish to undermine your safety or prosperity is paramount to living as a free man.  How you choose to interact with those same parties is how you will be measured as a man.

Peace to you if your intentions are pure.

Woe to you if you live by deception.

Dennis

PS. I've spent way too much time and effort on you, but, if you do wish to continue this, let us give courtesy to LFOD and either start a separate thread or continue it off the board completely.

[<|GunPlay|>]

Rich I began to smile widely as soon as you brought up the fallacy tactics used during debates, for I believe fallacies such as these are perhaps the most systemic reason for the mass confusion that defines politics nowadays.  These fallacies take advantage of misaligned neuron outgrowths related to the miss-programming of the logical processing center of the brain.  Let us all pause then, in order that we might hone in our logical processing skills for the betterment of ourselves and to practice shifting through, typifying, recognizing, and reigning in the logical "misfirings" presented here.

I think there is the obvious Circumstantial Ad Hominem attack being played upon Rich because he is Jewish.  It should be pointed out that Varrin, rightly, was the originator of the very basis of this discussion, and that I and others agree with Rich's position irrespective of the fact that he obviously has self interest in defending his position.  He simply has taken it upon himself to present what others (who are not Jewish, may I point out) were thinking and saying in private.

How about the Description of Burden of Proof?  Rich has simply asked for some proof that Pokerface, as a whole, is dedicated to discouraging racism by giving them a chance to clarify their position and pointing out the perceived problem areas.  A kind of "throw me a bone here", "I want to believe".  Instead, Pokerface's reply was "What is the representation of Jews on the FSP board?" and "From you Rich I would expect this level of disdain because you cover for crimes of the tribe".  This reaction can only come from a deeply held belief that race should be assumed as the primary determinant of Rich's actions (since he is a Jew after all) and the FSPs actions (it must be a Jewish controlled board).  This belief system is the very definition of racism.  Here's a hint: To prevent yourself from falling into the -isms, always first and foremost see people as individuals.

To be clear, I believe Rich's (and other's) actions are for the very protection of the Free State Project's reputation itself.  Rightly or wrongly, guilt by association is and always has been a real and constantly present political danger for the Project; just look what happened in the case of the Free Town Project.  Was it too much to ask for Pokerface to clarify their position for the benefit of everyone?  Well... to their detriment, they have clarified now.  Their position is one of, now, public belligerence, stubbornness, over-defensiveness, staying off topic, and total lack of acceptance of compromise.  In some alternate dimension this discussion could have very well been met with candor, stayed private, and perhaps even been resolved through understanding.

In the larger picture, I believe one of the most important fallacies at work here is "cum hoc ergo propter hoc", or correlation does not imply causation.  i.e. the statement "There are a lot of Jews in 'evil' power positions" does not imply a conspiracy of Jews to be evil, nor even a conspiracy to be in power.  Also we have "the statistics of small numbers" whereby because the only Jews I see are the Jews in 'evil' power positions, then all or most Jews must be 'evil'.  First of all I could say the same about a 'rich white' conspiracy called 'The United States of America' created to rule the world... how wrong, really, does that accusation look on its face?  It looks pretty correct to a simple minded fool (of which there are many I'm sure).  So ergo because I'm an American, does that now make me part of the grand conspiracy?  Does that make me complicit in the conspiracy?  This brand of logic does not compute.

This argument of a grand Jewish conspiracy is really silly at this point, and this is what it really comes down to folks: there are only a few conspirators out there numbering in the hundreds who ultimately cause all our legitimately large problems, and that is not a group large enough to define any other group other than itself.  It is an exercise in stupidity to as much as dally about in the thought that a large group could even hold on to, reap, and distribute the benefits of its own power.  For if that were really true, wouldn't democracy actually work in practice?  To hold on to, reap, and distribute ever more power it must always be, by definition, an ever more smaller group.  To hold the most power, you must be of the smallest group.

Race is used as a divider, and those who make the race distinction of prominent importance in the perception of others are dividers.  History shows that power is not race based, for it lends itself to those families with the most ambition, patience, and highest intelligence.