Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license

[Kat Kanning]

Bear in mind, this is a particularly benign situation. Not a black and white example of an immoral act committed by a "law enforcement" officer. How I would personally make the distinction is if for example, this officer physically accosted Russel. That would clearly be immoral and unacceptable and would serve as evidence to discredit his opinions should he wish to offer them after the fact.

Say the person doing this was someone other than a cop.  Would you call it benign to be told, get out of your car and come with me or I will shoot you (which is always implied when dealing with the cops)?  Would you yourself find it benign to be kidnapped?  I don't.

[Russell Kanning]

And this circumstance in my opinion falls within the realm of gray. It does because there has been no actual, physical harm done.

What if I had driven or walked away?
What if I stopped you on the street and took you away for a while?
What if I towed your car unless you moved it soon while I still had you locked up?

What happens when they want to charge me money for not having a license?
What happens if I don't have the money or don't want to pay?

Would you want that to happen to you?

[Rodinia]

Rodinia ... you probably look at the cops as protecting you from the bad guys

Absolutely, unequivocally, not.  I do not look as "cops" as being responsible for my protection. They are "law enforcement". They enforce laws. They are not personal body guards.

I think my original message has been convoluted. My main issue was with Jose's post stating he was going to choose to "ignore" rather than leave the forum.
The only point I was trying to make was that I don't think that just because someone is "ignorant" of the principles of liberty, they ought to be "ignored" as Jose suggested. I think there is an opportunity to sway minds via interactive discourse.

Russell, I understand what you're doing and believe me, I applaud you for it.
Kat, I'm in no way trying to minimize the impact the "law enforcement" officers have had on Russell's and subsequently your and your daughter's lives.

I am an advocate of civil disobedience and absolutely to the core of my being resent "authority". Is anyone out there understating me???

I do not think that denying anyone the opportunity to express their opinion (via "ignoring") is a benefit to advancing the principles of liberty.

By stating this, I'm not implying that I ever believed it was anyone's intent to "kick" anyone off this forum.

I believe it is a great detriment to the liberty cause to avoid engaging in debate. I believe this because their arguments which I believe to be mainly logical fallacies are  opportunities to prove them wrong.

And to whoever knocked on of my 30 little karmas off, please, justify that action.

[Rodinia]

Say the person doing this was someone other than a cop.  Would you call it benign to be told, get out of your car and come with me or I will shoot you (which is always implied when dealing with the cops)?  Would you yourself find it benign to be kidnapped?  I don't.

No Kat, I would not consider it benign. I would consider it an act of force and would defend myself against it.
Look, I'm not justifying the cop's actions. I never implied that I was. What I am saying is, it is the "law" the cop was enforcing and if we don't at least try and persuade "them" that the law is wrong, what chance have we got at all? By trying to persuade them, you haven't got anything to lose.

[Rodinia]

What if I had driven or walked away?
What if I stopped you on the street and took you away for a while?
What if I towed your car unless you moved it soon while I still had you locked up?

What happens when they want to charge me money for not having a license?
What happens if I don't have the money or don't want to pay?

Would you want that to happen to you?

Of course I wouldn't. I never suggested I would.

[Rodinia]

And if silence is the sound of leaving other alone, 100% of all police are guilty of interfering in people's lives.

This isn't true at all. 100% of the police are in fact, not guilty of interfering in people's lives. some are, not all.

[Rodinia]

You feel comfortable questioning Jose and PatMc and others .... because they will not hurt you like the cops might.

I am not afraid of the cops and if you had read earlier back in this post, I did in fact question the cop "Shane" who posted on this thread.

[Rodinia]

Is he a person or a law enforcement officer?
How should we then live?
What if I get a job as a hired killer for the government?
Would taking the job be wrong?

Is it innocent to take any job? Can you then do whatever is required at that job?

He is a person who works for law enforcement.
Live as you will, I can't answer that question for you.
Yes, I believe it would be morally wrong to take a job as a hired killer for the government.

No, it is not innocent to take any job.

[John Edward Mercier]

Can I ask why its not innocent to take any job?
If no State existed, it would be at the purview of the individual.

[Rodinia]

It would be wrong because I believe there are absolute rights and wrongs and committing murdering outside of self defense is wrong.

I'm not trying to make this into an anti-state argument. All I was trying to say was I don't think there is anything to be gained by not hearing someone out. After all, he (Shane) came to this forum. So long as he's willing to engage in debate, what is there to be gained by ignoring him? Far as I see it, it's an opportunity and it would be a shame to let it go to waste. That's it.

And whoever game me sympathy karmas, it doesn't negate the fact that the original karma was taken away by someone who did not grant me the benefit of the doubt. I am after all, a girl of principle.

[Rodinia]

Can I ask why its not innocent to take any job?
If no State existed, it would be at the purview of the individual.

To elaborate on this question as I answered it using Russell's example of murder for hire, I think that there is a fundamental code of ethics and morals which humans adhere to as a means of survival. It's in our best interest to maintain it. I think government perverts this code, some examples are through unwholesome laws and alteration of public perception and judicial precedence.
Thusly, to take a job which would offend the fundamental human code of ethics would be clearly wrong. Is it wrong to be a tobacco merchant knowing that while tobacco is legal, it's also potentially deadly?
I think there are varying degrees of wrongness and some wrongs are worse than others. I think there are obvious lines which when crossed are clearly immoral. Murder obviously being one of these lines.
But to equivocate being pulled over with murder is unrealistic in my opinion.

[Russell Kanning]

I'm not trying to make this into an anti-state argument. All I was trying to say was I don't think there is anything to be gained by not hearing someone out. After all, he (Shane) came to this forum. So long as he's willing to engage in debate, what is there to be gained by ignoring him?

Jose could gain some time back and maybe some sanity.

[kola]

we now pause from a word from out sponsors:

Hi, I am Kolanut and I would like to take this brief moment and thank the 2 gooncops, shane and brad, for posting on the forum. They did a wonderful job of proving to others what REAL thugs they truely are, despite their meaniless bullshit comments. Their direct actions did their talking and their talking made many of us realize that these thugs lie through their teeth. Atall costs, avoid gooncops with their similar MO.

..now back to our regually tuned program.. 

[John Edward Mercier]

Can I ask why its not innocent to take any job?
If no State existed, it would be at the purview of the individual.

To elaborate on this question as I answered it using Russell's example of murder for hire, I think that there is a fundamental code of ethics and morals which humans adhere to as a means of survival. It's in our best interest to maintain it. I think government perverts this code, some examples are through unwholesome laws and alteration of public perception and judicial precedence.
Thusly, to take a job which would offend the fundamental human code of ethics would be clearly wrong. Is it wrong to be a tobacco merchant knowing that while tobacco is legal, it's also potentially deadly?
I think there are varying degrees of wrongness and some wrongs are worse than others. I think there are obvious lines which when crossed are clearly immoral. Murder obviously being one of these lines.
But to equivocate being pulled over with murder is unrealistic in my opinion.

What code? How did it come about?

[kola]

btw, whos rondinia? isnt that a style of pasta?

Kolinia