6/8/08 Open carry incident in Manchester

[Dave Ridley]

not sure if there is another thread on this but here is my quickie initial report:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFXVUIiDxkc

[slim]

Dave please try and get all the information possible. This harassment should be front page news on the local papers. That is a great way to welcome people to the state have the cops waste peoples time for following the laws. Whats next pulling people over for driving at or below the speed limit or using directional signals?

[error]

The cops already pull over drivers who have done absolutely nothing wrong. In large numbers.

[Kat Kanning]

Wow, was with Neal today and didn't even hear about this.

[margomaps]

Wow, was with Neal today and didn't even hear about this.

Weird.  You'd think someone who was detained at gunpoint, held for a half an hour, had to put his hands on his head, was forcibly separated from his driver's license, and verbally assaulted by 6 police officers would mention that.

Unless the descriptions we've heard 2nd hand have been significantly exaggerated and blown out of proportion.  I sure am looking forward to hearing what happened straight from the source!

[Lloyd Danforth]

Perhaps that is a daily occurrence in Florida.  Doesn't Neal go to the college where 'Bro' Tazered that guy?

[Porcupine_in_MA]

Unless the descriptions we've heard 2nd hand have been significantly exaggerated and blown out of proportion. 

No unless about it. 

[Porcupine_in_MA]

Awww bitchslap. I'd love for whoever bitchslapped me, explain exactly why. LOL

[margomaps]

Awww bitchslap. I'd love for whoever bitchslapped me, explain exactly why. LOL

Interesting idea here.  I think an improvement to the karma system would be one or both of two things:

1) the applauder/smiter has to enter a brief reason why he applauded/smited, and/or
2) the identity of each applauder/smiter is listed

Very much how the e-bay rating system used to work.  The lack of anonymity would (I think) dissuade people from smiting people for petty reasons.

On the other hand I don't think most people really take the karma system all that seriously anyway.

[Porcupine_in_MA]

On the other hand I don't think most people really take the karma system all that seriously anyway.

Nor should they. I think its just cute someone would take the time to 'bitchslap' someone.

[Kat Kanning]

Perhaps that is a daily occurrence in Florida.  Doesn't Neal go to the college where 'Bro' Tazered that guy?

Yeah, I saw him in the protest march video about the incident.

[margomaps]

Wow, was with Neal today and didn't even hear about this.

Weird.  You'd think someone who was detained at gunpoint, held for a half an hour, had to put his hands on his head, was forcibly separated from his driver's license, and verbally assaulted by 6 police officers would mention that.

Unless the descriptions we've heard 2nd hand have been significantly exaggerated and blown out of proportion.  I sure am looking forward to hearing what happened straight from the source!

I just saw Dave Ridley's interview with Neil and his friend (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKZfa_XweBo), and I wanted to follow up with this thread.

MengerFan, if you're out there...your account of the situation wasn't too far off.  Critically, you added the "fact" that they were held at gunpoint, and this apparently did not happen.  The detaining happened, the verbal lambasting happened -- and these are very bad things.  I still contend your exaggeration and hyperbole don't contribute anything useful to this issue.  There's no need to make up or embellish the facts when the actual facts are bad enough!

Anyway, to the extent that I doubted the veracity of your claims, I apologize; you were at least partially correct in your description of what happened.  Your incendiary tone raised a red flag in my mind, and so I treated everything you said about the incident with skepticism.

I suggest everyone here call and/or write the mayor's office and respectfully but forcefully remind the mayor that open carry is lawful in NH, and that two law-abiding individuals were harassed and detained by the police for absolutely no reason whatsoever.  Include the date of the incident, the location, the names of the people harassed, and the reason why you're concerned (something like "I visit/live in/pass through Manchester and I don't want to be harassed by the police for acting lawfully while protecting myself and my loved ones.").  If we overwhelm the mayor with complaints, he may be compelled to give another stern talking to the police and remind them of the law.

[David]

Good job Neil and Alexander,    Thanks Dave for covering it. 

[MaineShark]

After conferring with one of the individuals involved, I offer the following...

http://www.pledgebank.com/OpenCarry

"I will openly carry a pistol in Manchester, NH but only if 20 other local people will do the same."

— Joseph Brown, New Hampshire resident (contact)

Deadline to sign up by: 4th July 2008
1 person has signed up, 19 more needed

Country: United States
Place: Manchester (view map)

More details
On June 8th, the Manchester Police violated the human, civil, and Constitutional rights of four peaceable persons because two of them happened to be openly carrying pistols while walking down the sidewalk.

These individuals were not harming anyone, and many would argue that their presence would actually deter criminals. NH is the safest state in the US, in large part because the right to keep and bear arms is exercised by such a large percentage of the population.

The actions of the Manchester Police Department were a direct violation of the rights of these individuals, as well as violating State and Federal laws regarding unlawful detention and governmental interference with the free exercise of protected civil rights.

In you sign this pledge, please openly carry your pistol whenever you visit Manchester, unless the weather makes that impossible, and until the City formally apologizes to the individuals who were harmed in this incident, and institutes remedial training programs for all officers to prevent future incidents.

[ReverendRyan]

The following letter was sent today to Ayotte, Guinta, and Mara:

David J. Mara
Chief of Police
Manchester Police Department
351 Chestnut Street
Manchester, NH 03101

Hon. Frank C. Guinta
Mayor
City of Manchester
One City Hall Plaza
Manchester, NH 03101

Friday, June 20, 2008

I am writing to you to lodge a complaint against the Manchester Police Department and Mayor in his capacity of Chief Executive of the City stemming from an incident that took place on Sunday, June 8 at about 6:50pm.

Background

On the afternoon of Sunday, June 8, at approximately 5:45pm, I left a small gathering at Murphy's Taproom, located at 494 Elm Street. I was accompanied by three visitors from Gainesville, Florida: Neal Conner, Roxanne Schulman, and Alexander Villacampa. This was Mr. Villacampa's and Ms. Schulman's first visit to New Hampshire, and they showed some interest in moving to Manchester. I took them on a short walking tour of the center of the city.

Mr. Conner and Mr. Villacampa were carrying pistols in plain view, as is their right guaranteed by the Constitution of New Hampshire.

We walked North along Elm from Auburn to Granite, made a left to walk over the river as far as the I-293 overpass, then turned East, following Granite and subsequently Lake Ave, toward my home. As the heat index that day was well over 100 degrees, we stopped at Han's Food Mart at 353 Lake Ave for drinks, then set out to continue the few remaining blocks toward my home.

Shortly after crossing Lincoln, we heard a sharp whistle behind us and turned. A Manchester Patrol officer shouted at us to put our hands in the air. We complied. When asked, it was made very clear we were not free to leave. Soon, we were surrounded by six officers from two bicycles and three patrol cars.

We were asked to provide identification.  Upon questioning, we were falsely instructed that providing identification was required, and we complied. The four of us were patted down and subjected to criminal checks. Mr. Conner and Mr. Villacampa were then disarmed under duress. One officer physically searched inside the pockets of Mr. Conner.

While we waited for records of ourselves and the firearms to come back clear, which they naturally did, we were subjected to a condescending lecture about the carrying of arms, and quizzed repeatedly as to why we would carry a firearm, the most asinine of which was the recursive "This is the most dangerous neighborhood in New Hampshire! Why would you want to carry a gun?" We were also told one officer's side of the story about a similar stop last fall involving our friend David Ridley, implying that either the officers involved knew they were crossing the line, or that it is Manchester Police Department's own policy to do so.

When asked why we would be unlawfully detained and searched simply for lawfully carrying firearms, we were told that the officers had an interest in protecting themselves and the neighborhood. The mere thought that we may have the same goals was laughed off.

We were told that the officers understood that we have a right to carry firearms, but if we choose to exercise that right, we would continue to be subject to such unconstitutional, unlawful, and dehumanizing treatment.

After about 30 minutes of our polite endurance of various disrespectful and arrogant statements and questions by the officers, Mr. Conner's and Mr. Villacampa's firearms were returned, ammunition separately, and they were falsely informed that they were not allowed to reload them.

We continued eastward and walked the remaining block home.

Points of Complaint

We were told that the officers were obligated to respond to every call. While that is certainly true, there are two possible, helpful, and lawful ways to do so: drive by and see if anything illegal is going on, and even possibly stopping simply to talk, and responding to the complaintant to educate them that carrying a firearm is completely lawful. Ensuring one person's feeling of security by violating another's actual security is simply unacceptable.

This detention took place less than half a block from where Officer Michael Briggs was murdered, which I'm sure explains the overly emotional state of some of the officers involved. However, a policy of trying to persuade the law-abiding inhabitants of the neighborhood to disarm can only aggravate the situation, dishearten the people of Manchester to protect themselves, and violates the officer's own sworn duty to protect the public's safety.

The original detention, with no reasonable, articulable suspicion that any of us were or would be involved in commission of a crime, violated RSA 625:6 (All Offenses Defined by Statute); RSA 633:3 (False Imprisonment); RSA 643:1 (Official Oppression); 42 USC 1983 (Civil Action for Deprivation of Rights); Article 2-a (The Bearing of Arms) and Article 29 (Suspension of Laws by Legislature Only) of the New Hampshire Constitution; and the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution as clarified in Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968) and Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000).

The searching inside of pockets and seizing of firearms clearly violated the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution as clarified in Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968).

The entire incident, from start to finish, violated the spirit of Article 12 and the last clause of Article 10 of the New Hampshire Constitution.

The fact that the officers were quite knowledgeable of previous, nearly identical incidents, with at least a 4 year history of such illegal stops, as well as thier assurance that if one wishes to exercise certain rights, he should expect to have others violated, constitutes a conspiracy to and/or pattern and practice of violating rights under color of law, variously 18 USC 241, 42 USC 1983, and 42 USC 14141. The Boston office of the FBI has advised me this is enough evidence to initiate a civil rights investigation of MPD if I wished to do so. However, I do not wish to do that unless absolutely necessary to stop these abuses.

Conclusion

I would like to solve this in a gentlemanly fashion that will compensate myself and  my friends, as well as prevent any other citizens from being subjected to this kind of abuse. I request the following forms of relief:

A full, public apology to myself, Mr. Conner, Ms. Schulman, and Mr. Villacampa, from the Mayor's Office and Manchester Police Department, to be published in the Union Leader and the Gainesville Sun, if necessary at the expense of the Mayor's Office or Manchester Police Department;

Retraining of all Manchester patrol officers on Article 2-a, New Hampshire Statutes Chapter 159, and unlawful detentions, searches, and seizures; and

A Manchester Police Department policy of immediate dismissal of any officer found to have repeatedly unlawfully detained any citizen simply for lawfully exercising his or her constitutional rights.

I believe that given the circumstances, this is a very reasonable request.

If all the previous are fully followed through, I will seek no further civil or action directed toward either the City of Manchester or the Manchester Police Department. However, if any are not, I reserve my right to file suit in state and/or federal court against the City of Manchester and/or the Manchester Police Department for these violations.

The last thing I want is for it to take a lawsuit or investigation in order to teach the city that a public servant can't arbitrarily violate one's human, civil, and constitutional rights.

I assure you, I wish to resolve this in as gentlemanly a manner as possible, and await your response.


Sincerely,

Ryan Marvin
459 Wilson St
Manchester NH 03103
603-203-9387


CC:
Kelly A. Ayotte
Attorney General
33 Capitol Street
Concord, N.H. 03301