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"Let them march all they want, as long as they pay their taxes."  --Alexander Haig

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Author Topic: Shire Hours  (Read 13858 times)

jaqeboy

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Re: Shire Hours
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2008, 11:10 PM NHFT »


yes ... this is not a new currency ... yes this will only work with friends and friends of friends .... yes this will only work with shire folk :)

Again, referring to Ithaca, they are kind of limited to their fellow Hour enthusiasts, though they don't have to be of the same political persuasion - the users are probably skewed to the same thinking on creating community institutions, though, of course.

Dave Grossack's Universal Trade Hour concept was to create a trade hour that would be usable anywhere and not limited to any one community. He has the project on hold, but he has printed a ton of certificates already and possibly could be convinced to re-start the project.

Lex's notes are kinda like IOU's and the idea of certificates is to make them not tied to any particular origin transaction. The sticky problem, though is how to issue them in a way that everyone perceives as fair. Then I think the governing board of the issuing authority has to operate transparently enough that people can feel confident that they're not flooding the market with the certs for their own gain.

Kevin Innes, who is up here from N.C., says community currencies are sweeping Germany, and I had heard that separately. He has more info on that if we want to tap him for that.


Interesting idea Lex. I was thinking of having only online, but anyone could make pieces of paper. :)

A good model for online systems is the LETS concept.
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Barterer

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Re: Shire Hours
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2008, 11:15 PM NHFT »

If you guys would like me to add Shire-Hours as a unit of exchange (you know where) just let me know many USDs a Shire-Hour should be.  The caveat is that the participants have to agree that their labor is worth roughly the same per hour.

Or maybe since inflation's going nuts, I will revamp the trading system and make silver ounces or Shire-Hours the base unit.  If there will be Shire Silver and Shire-Hours, and a 1/2 ounce of silver is worth (very roughly) one hour's work, I could set it at a 1:2 ratio and quit mucking with it every time the spot prices change.  In other words, screw USD.
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jaqeboy

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Re: Shire Hours
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2008, 01:42 AM NHFT »

Here's a quote from the Ithaca Hours site: http://www.ithacahours.org/

Quote
The main concern a business often has when considering accepting HOURS is what will I do with the HOURS I get from customers or clients? The first thing to note is that you decide what rate of HOURS you will accept for purchases or services. Some member businesses accept 100% HOURS but many limit the HOURS they will accept.

You should calculate a rate of HOURS that is proportional to your ability to put them back into the local economy. In thinking about this you may be surprised to learn that in fact there are many outlets for the use of HOURS. If you look in the Directory you will find many other places you can easily spend HOURS. Or write us for help (info@ithacahours.org).

I think they are a good model to look to, since they have actually been doing it for so long.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Shire Hours
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2008, 07:31 AM NHFT »

Barterer - If you add Shire Hours, I will just use your system. People can give others hours on your ripple system or also issue their own paper.
The integrity will be in the issuing. In the ripple system, I can see who is saying they owe hours. If you hand out certificates, I also know who made them. We would not have a board or a central anything.
I wouldn't need the Shire Hours to be exchangable for anything but somebodys hours of work. But if the system needs to ... why not just use Silver as the base and equate it with one hour of work.

But I am only interested in getting the thing started and having it all payable in the issuing person's hours.
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Barterer

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Re: Shire Hours
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2008, 04:38 PM NHFT »

Awesome.  I will give any traders currently on the system time to wrap up their business, then convert it to a Shire Hour system.  Here is the new homepage message:

Welcome! Ripple.libertybrew.com is about to be simplified into a silver and Shire Hour trading system. You will still be able to chose your primary unit of exchange, and whether or not you allow your account to accept Shire-Hour/Silver conversions. The conversion rate will be 1 Ounce of Shire Silver for Two Shire-Hours of work. Please close out any debts or credits you may have with your trading partner(s) and I will restart the system from scratch once I'm confident that no one has left a significant pile of credit or debt outstanding.

Please do not make any new accounts (that you don't want cleared) until this message has changed and the Shire Hour system is ready.
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Barterer

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Re: Shire Hours
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2008, 04:44 PM NHFT »

Also, my header graphic kind of sucks.  It is a 500x100 transparent png.  If one of you artists (Dalebert, Dylboz?) would like to make a better, perhaps more Tolkienesque one, please do!

« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 07:37 PM NHFT by Barterer »
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jaqeboy

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Re: Shire Hours
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2008, 09:35 PM NHFT »


 ... why not just use Silver as the base and equate it with one hour of work....


The inherently cool thing about an hours system is it lets you issue certificates, whether paper or electronic, when no one has any silver or gold or other metal specie. Assume, for example, that the bad guys siezed all your metal money - it could happen, eh?
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Lloyd Danforth

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Re: Shire Hours
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2008, 09:08 AM NHFT »

I just printed found a bunch of Alt Expo notes!  Can't wait to see you Jack.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Shire Hours
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2008, 07:07 PM NHFT »

Sounds good Barterer.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Shire Hours
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2008, 07:11 PM NHFT »

... why not just use Silver as the base and equate it with one hour of work....
The inherently cool thing about an hours system is it lets you issue certificates, whether paper or electronic, when no one has any silver or gold or other metal specie. Assume, for example, that the bad guys siezed all your metal money - it could happen, eh?
I was talking about his ripple system, since he might have had some limitations.

I need to give out some Shire Hours for the work done this weekend. These hours are good for my work or anyone olse who will accept them.

Kat was thinking we needed to add the word "karma" to the title. I like the simplicity of Shire Hours ... to match Shire Silver ... but I would like to add karma or positive karma. :)
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Barterer

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Re: Shire Hours
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2008, 10:21 PM NHFT »

Speaking of paper receipts, would you guys prefer to be emailed a receipt when you earn or redeem Shire Hours, or should it remain silent?  Right now the whole thing's behind SSL (security comparable to when you use a credit card online) and no emails are sent, except to validate a new user.  Some people may want paper receipts, but of course that would be clear text sent to you.  I can't code well enough to make this user-selectable, so it has to be the same for all -- emails or no emails?

Karma... yes you should give me some  ;D  But if you're serious, a unit of karma could be added, given a ratio of karma to Ag or karma to Hours.

Looks like I'm going to tackle this Friday after work.  Hopefully somebody will do a cool graphic by then.  We could also change the stylesheets to something more hobbit-y once the more technical stuff is settled.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Shire Hours
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2008, 07:55 AM NHFT »

I like emails ... so people don't have to keep checking.

I was talking about putting the word Karma into the name ... on your system it would be simpler to call the Shire Hours.

I need to hand out some hours from last weekend.

Also ... just to let people know ... I can currently work for you and get paid in Shire Hours .... to be redeemed later when I need some work done. :)
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Barterer

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Re: Shire Hours
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2008, 01:07 PM NHFT »

I like emails ... so people don't have to keep checking.
Cool. I will re-enable emails as part of the overhaul.  Paper receipts all around  :)

The main title will still be part of the header graphic.. currently 500x100 but could be as large as 640x120.
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LotharSNL

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Re: Shire Hours
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2008, 01:42 AM NHFT »

  I'd suggest that exchanging promissory notes based on silver, or anything else one might take in exchange for something, would be sufficient for what you guys are discussing.  I try to encourage people to consider every transaction a trade.  "Purchasing", exclusive of exchanging, is a myth.  I assume it's a tool to allow us "spenders" to be measured, and taxed.

  Anyone could write a promissory note, or a check, for an amount of silver, in exchange for some sort of services, or an IOU, gift certificate, etc., for the negotiated services.  I can't remember all the factors that are necessary for the note to stand on it's own (legally, if that is a concern), but Lex Berezhny covered some of them.  As well as a payor, payee, a date, a signature, and the amount of whatever negotiated needs to be listed...  as well as something else I'm sure I'm forgetting.  These can be endorsed, and exchanged.  If they ever got back to the originators hands, s/he could destroy it, or simply exchange it again instead of creating a new one.

  Exchanging IOUs, or promissory notes payable with silver, could be negotiated between parties for any service, or hours of labor, and I think it would suffice for what it is you guys are discussing with the Shire Hours concept.  Like one of you already pointed out, you might be willing to promise an hour of yard work before you'd be willing to promise 10 minutes of plumbing work, or vice versa.

  I found the eLiberty Dollar service to be very useful, while it lasted.  I'm not entirely sure what Shire Silver will become, but I'd love to see that type of service available again.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 01:47 AM NHFT by LotharSNL »
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LotharSNL

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Re: Shire Hours
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2008, 03:54 AM NHFT »

A friend of mine read my post, and simplified my point a bit...

  All we need is the ability to contract, and a sound medium of exchange, like silver, or silver backed currency.  The "Hours" is a better then FRNs, but inferior to what we'd have with barter, and real currency.
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