Can I run away to Keene like AnarchoJesse Did?

[Brandon]

Well we have that nowadays, don't we? What about people who have to pick up trash by the side of the highway because they've been sentenced to community service? Is that a "camp" in your book, too?

Yes, that can certainly be considered a camp. And trying to justify it because it currently exists is asinine.

[Luke S]

Sure they're being forced to labor, though not necessarily in a camp, or a plantation. Our modern slaveholders have a wide range of options, and sometimes they'll even let us little slaves choose among some of them! We have the nicest masters in the whole world!

Wow. You know, I like you guys, but you guys have got the most extreme views I have ever seen out of anybody in my entire life.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

If you think that I'm bad for proposing to put drug users into "slave labor camps" (which are in reality community service work sites, not slave labor camps), then what about all those people who knowingly vote people into office who keep the status quo wrt income tax slavery, and Social Security tax slavery, and UN slavery?

Operative word being "knowingly", they're aggressors. I believe the vast majority of people are not sociopaths and merely do not see that the government is violence. Those people, I want to help. I view "belief in government" as a social disease. Some people, after seeing the government as violence still support it and those people sicken me.

What about Highline, who is a police officer, supposedly one of the "enemy" in your book?

What about him? He's still perpetrating violence against others. What more needs to be said in regard to that?

What about Jan, who voted straight-ticket Democrat for 30 years?

People make mistakes. People fail. Myself included who voted Democrat my entire life, with the single exception of voting Ron Paul in the 2008 Primaries. People make bad choices, and they have responsibility to the people they harm as a result of those choice.

Does Jan STILL vote Democrat? That's the important part. Someone who sees that they are wrong and corrects that is fine in my book. People who do wrong and proudly flaunt it... not so much. Jan voted Democrat - do you still endorse your slave labor camps?

You can call it what you will. When you use violence against people and demand they use their labor in a fashion inconsistant with what they'd freely choose, you're a slave master. Call it a "community service camp" or a "Love Building Seminar" or "National Service" or "Purple Ponies Farting Rainbows" I dont' care. It's slavery and it's sick.

I think your real problem with me is you don't like it when I point out the holes in your anarcho-capitalist theories.

Actually, no. I'm fairly sure of the consistancy of my position. My problem with you is that you support violence against others and claim to be thinking of "liberty". I've been very clear, biased or not, I have animosity towards neo-conservative ideologies because I grew up as a liberal. I've NEVER understood what can compel people to kill other people and think it's good. The idea that people benefit from being shoved into a cage and forcefully removed from their families is foreign to me. As a liberal, war sickened me. As a libertarian, war sickened me. As an anarchist or volutaryist or whatever, war sickens me. The "problem" I have with you is that regardless of the viewpoints I've held that led me to beleive using violence against others is wrong, you cling to the idea that violence against others is not only "needed" but "good". You're welcome to claim all the fallacies you want in that egocentric viewpoint but I'll take being "selfish" or "inconsistant" in your view if it means not condoning violence.

And you don't like it when I point out that I have worked in Detroit for 3 summers in a real bad area and I know that libertarians aren't telling the whole truth about drugs.

Not to take a pin to that pristine bubble of experience there, but you're not the only one to have experienced Detroit and the surrounding area. I grew up in that area. I've PMed you a while back about protecting gun rights and you mentioned "venturing out of the snooty suburbs". If you live in Bloomfield Hills or Farmington or Livonia or whatever, there's drugs too. There are Meth addicts in Redford and Potheads in Novi. There are crack addicts on the East side of Detroit and I'm sure you can find someone sucking dick for some heroine on the west side. Libertarians means absolutely NOTHING. I am not a libertarian. I say simply say "You own your body."

I'll be the first to admit, I cringe when I hear people advocate for legalization of drugs because "alcohol is worse". To me, that's as much an arguement to criminalize alcohol as to legalize pot. Let's move past that. Drugs will destroy your body. They will alter you mental state. They're addictive and to some addicts they destroy lives. I'll concede those points.

Now, let's get to the real issue. If I want to put sugar in my body, you have no right to tell me I can not. It is my body. If you want to shove your penis into my body, you can not - it is my body. If you want to tell my wife she can't have an abortion - you can not. It's her body. If you want to tell me I can't smoke cannabis, you can not - it's my body.

I own my body, you have no right to it. Do you dispute this claim?

I will admit that the establishment wasn't telling the whole truth about drugs, either, but neither are you.

See my point above. Not that it matters but I've quit smoking tobacco because it harmed my body. I consume alcohol and love being drunk, but I choose not to smoke cannabis because it makes me feel out of control of my body and that's not a feeling I enjoy. You can take that "you're not telling the truth" arguement and shove it because I'm not going to sit here and pretend that drugs are harmless and I never have. I argue legalization from the perspective that I own my body and you have no right to dictate what goes into it.

Having somebody come on here and tell you that you are wrong in some areas and provide reasons why is probably an experience that you have not had before

I admitted to voting Democrat. I'm well aware I've been wrong before! Being wrong makes me nothing less, but when I learn from it, I do become something more. I hold no fear of being wrong.

Kat told me I was never banned from here. I'm not convinced of the truth of that statement. Although I tried to get on here more than a few times during the past couple months, I absolutely could not get on no matter what I did until recently. Oh, and I tried on my dad's computer a couple times, and I could not get on from that computer either.

Speaking from a technical standpoint, you could have been banned via IP address which would have been ineffective once you tried logging on from your dad's computer. You could have also been banned via username. You weren't banned, since your username was still appearing in the userlist. Look at Shane Maxfield and Highline... They were driven off the board. Quite simply, until about yesterday I avoided sgtUSMC and could have used these forums entirely without interacting with him.

If people hated you enough to ban you, why would they unban you? No, I think there may have been a technical issue or user error or whatever, but personal evidence tells me you weren't banned. Now, I may be wrong, some spiteful moderator may have banned you. Without meaning to sound offensive I simply think most people on these forums don't care enough about you to ban you when ignoring you in the profile requires equal effort and doesn't affect other people's ability to banter with you.

And I know somebody changed my name to "Narc" a couple times, and put "Nazi shithead" in my signature

Now that's entirely possible, and I might even wager on whom it was.

Well we have that nowadays, don't we? What about people who have to pick up trash by the side of the highway because they've been sentenced to community service?

If you read the anarcho-capitalist book "The Market For Liberty" you'll hear them discuss how in the free market, prisons would still exist. Granted, they'd be different but they'd exist.

I don't accept that load of crap. The justice system is one area where I even break from Ian's "ideologue" viewpoint... I hold that prison is unethical. Put blunty, if someone is a threat to you, I respect your right to eliminate that threat. If someone is not a threat to you, then you have no right to infringe their life, liberty or property. In that respect, I even depart from the "anarcho-capitalist" ideology.

Arguing that slave labor is okay since we currently have slave labor is about as stupid as arguing for a world government because the UN exists.

Wow. You know, I like you guys, but you guys have got the most extreme views I have ever seen out of anybody in my entire life.

Indeed.

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

[dalebert]

Wow. You know, I like you guys, but you guys have got the most extreme views I have ever seen out of anybody in my entire life.

Violence abroad - conservative

Violence at home - liberal

Violence against everyone - moderate

Violence against no one - extremist

EDIT on 8/4/08: I got this from a bumper sticker. Can't remember who said it but I'll post it when I can dig that sticker out of all that shit I packed and moved to Keene today. Meanwhile, I mis-quoted slightly and just corrected it.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

Violence nowhere - extremist

Deep man. Deep.

[FTL_Ian]

Violence everywhere - moderate, conservative, liberal

Violence nowhere - extremist

Also inaccurate.

Fixed.

[error]

Sure they're being forced to labor, though not necessarily in a camp, or a plantation. Our modern slaveholders have a wide range of options, and sometimes they'll even let us little slaves choose among some of them! We have the nicest masters in the whole world!

Wow. You know, I like you guys, but you guys have got the most extreme views I have ever seen out of anybody in my entire life.

You haven't had much of a life, then, and should get out more.

[J’raxis 270145]

Violence everywhere - moderate, conservative, liberal

Violence nowhere - extremist

Also inaccurate.

Fixed.

Accuracy at the expense of pithy phrasing.

And it's not entirely inaccurate: By and large, it's been the conservative party starting major wars recently, and the liberal party starting major nanny-state initiatives at home. Both parties do both, but not in equal measure, and they're certainly not perceived by the mainstream as such.

[Russell Kanning]

Sure they're being forced to labor, though not necessarily in a camp, or a plantation. Our modern slaveholders have a wide range of options, and sometimes they'll even let us little slaves choose among some of them! We have the nicest masters in the whole world!

For a fee, they might even let you go back to your cubicle and work for them there.

Wow ... Luke has inspired Kevin Dean to "walls of text" (phrase picked up from JJ)

[Jan]

You've burnt bridges. A lot of people think you're an asshole. People aren't reluctant to help you because they don't want you moving to Keene because you're not an anarchist. People are reluctant because you've called them "scum" and "criminals" and said they deserve to be put into slave labor camps. Whatever epiphanies you may have had, as much as you regret not having them now, you'd burnt bridges within THIS community, and before you have any realistic expectation of people wanting to aid you freely you'll need to make up for that.

If you think that I'm bad for proposing to put drug users into "slave labor camps" (which are in reality community service work sites, not slave labor camps), then what about all those people who knowingly vote people into office who keep the status quo wrt income tax slavery, and Social Security tax slavery, and UN slavery? What about Highline, who is a police officer, supposedly one of the "enemy" in your book? What about Jan, who voted straight-ticket Democrat for 30 years?

My name is Jan and I voted straight-ticket Democrat for 30 years.  I acknowledge I was wrong.  At least I've seen the light, Luke, and I'm in "recovery" now.  I admit I'd relapse and vote Democrat again if it was for a candidate like Joel Winters.

[Russell Kanning]

straight-ticket democrat for 30 years?

that could mean serious time in Shire purgatory

[Jan]

I accept my punishment Cardinal Kanning...

[mackler]

If you think that I'm bad for proposing to put drug users into "slave labor camps" (which are in reality community service work sites, not slave labor camps), then what about...

Doh!  I'll admit it, Luke, you had me going there for a bit.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

Luke has inspired Kevin Dean to "walls of text"

It doesn't take much, I'm long winded. 

[David]

Wow. You know, I like you guys, but you guys have got the most extreme views I have ever seen out of anybody in my entire life.

Violence abroad - conservative

Violence at home - liberal

Violence everywhere - moderate

Violence nowhere - extremist

Careful, you might make too much sence, after all, there has got to be a hole in there somewhere, because Luke said there was.