Her only housing option: a car

[Pat McCotter]

Sorry, but I'm still not buying it.? I fail to see how ANY of it gets you close to leaving mom out in the car. If I squint and stretch and ignore my personal experience with public schools, I can see how it leads to her being there in the first place, and I can understand frustration over paying into a system that doesn't work, but at some point wouldn't you, unless you were a complete waste of sperm, see that mom's sleeping in the car and it's your job to do something about it? Heck, Mike made the offer to help. He presumably pays into the broken system too, and didn't use this as a reason not to help. Rail against the public school system all you want, but I think the blame for this one belongs with the kids and not the system.

What about what the parents taught the kids?

[Mark]

Sorry, but I'm still not buying it.  I fail to see how ANY of it gets you close to leaving mom out in the car. If I squint and stretch and ignore my personal experience with public schools, I can see how it leads to her being there in the first place, and I can understand frustration over paying into a system that doesn't work, but at some point wouldn't you, unless you were a complete waste of sperm, see that mom's sleeping in the car and it's your job to do something about it? Heck, Mike made the offer to help. He presumably pays into the broken system too, and didn't use this as a reason not to help. Rail against the public school system all you want, but I think the blame for this one belongs with the kids and not the system.

What about what the parents taught the kids?

Another excellent point that speaks against blaming this on the government, or even claiming that the government created the environment in which such a choice would be made.

As an aside (posting it in this thread because I figure this is where it started), what's with these Karma points, anyway? I kinda figured a poster would get nicked for being disrespectful/rude/etc. but I'm going up and down and up and down, and from what I can tell all I've done is disagree with some ideas that were posted by some regulars. If someone's offended, I'd sure love to know why.

[Russell Kanning]

As an aside (posting it in this thread because I figure this is where it started), what's with these Karma points, anyway? I kinda figured a poster would get nicked for being disrespectful/rude/etc. but I'm going up and down and up and down, and from what I can tell all I've done is disagree with some ideas that were posted by some regulars. If someone's offended, I'd sure love to know why.

who knows why it goes up and down ....... sometimes when a new poster disagrees .....they look disagreeable ..... with good behavior you might survive

[KBCraig]

Sometimes you might get smote just for furtive whispering and gleeful laughter. 

[AlanM]

Mark,
Suggest you read "Underground History of American Education" by John Taylor Gatto. It is available to read online at http://www.johntaylorgatto.com

One of the points he makes, is that schools are designed to break down the family structure.

[Mark]

Mark,
Suggest you read "Underground History of American Education" by John Taylor Gatto. It is available to read online at http://www.johntaylorgatto.com

One of the points he makes, is that schools are designed to break down the family structure.

Alan,

I will check it out. However, to the original point that the kids are merely "products of the system," it's unthinkable to me that anyone I associate with (mostly publicly schooled) would consider doing this to a parent. I understand that many of you have issues with the public school system, but I think this one's a little simpler than a successful government conspiracy to destroy our families. Maybe the kids are broke too. Maybe the mom abused them and they've separated themselves from her. Maybe they've never been taught about compassion and charity (a job of the family whether the kid's in a city school or not, IMHO). Maybe they're just jerks.

[AlanM]

Mark,
Suggest you read "Underground History of American Education" by John Taylor Gatto. It is available to read online at http://www.johntaylorgatto.com

One of the points he makes, is that schools are designed to break down the family structure.

Alan,

I will check it out. However, to the original point that the kids are merely "products of the system," it's unthinkable to me that anyone I associate with (mostly publicly schooled) would consider doing this to a parent. I understand that many of you have issues with the public school system, but I think this one's a little simpler than a successful government conspiracy to destroy our families. Maybe the kids are broke too. Maybe the mom abused them and they've separated themselves from her. Maybe they've never been taught about compassion and charity (a job of the family whether the kid's in a city school or not, IMHO). Maybe they're just jerks.

Maybe they are one of the above. My point in not totally condemning them lies in my belief that a given number of students in public schools swallow the indoctrination completely. It takes a strong will to resist twelve or more years of continued indoctrination. Some swallow some parts of it, others succumb to other parts of it.

[tracysaboe]

Mark, the whole purpose of government education -- From Socraties utopian "Republic" to Prussia's State-School system, to current day is to sever the bounds between parant and child. The State is to take the place of the parent. And it actually works quite well.

The problem with government schools, isn't so much that they don't work. It's that

they're doing exactly what they were designed to do very well

.

I also think the "I gave at the office" mentality is a bit part of it too though. "I already paid my takes for my mom to get taken care of, and now she wants more?" Plus, if the weren't paying all those taxes they'd have more income to be charitible to begin with.

Tracy

[Mark]

Mark, the whole purpose of government education -- From Socraties utopian "Republic" to Prussia's State-School system, to current day is to sever the bounds between parant and child. The State is to take the place of the parent. And it actually works quite well.

The problem with government schools, isn't so much that they don't work. It's that

they're doing exactly what they were designed to do very well

.

I also think the "I gave at the office" mentality is a bit part of it too though. "I already paid my takes for my mom to get taken care of, and now she wants more?" Plus, if the weren't paying all those taxes they'd have more income to be charitible to begin with.

Tracy

I went through the public school system, AND I "gave at the office." I still wouldn't let my mother scrounge out an existence sleeping in the back of a car. Maybe I'm just extraordinary.

Or... Maybe not. I have no idea how Mike and his wife were educated, but I presume they "gave at the office" as well. Still, they felt compelled to help another person who needed it.

And yet her kids didn't feel so compelled. Maybe they just went to a "better" school?

[AlanM]

Mark, you are comparing apples to oranges. Libertarians have a belief in self-responsibility, which is discouraged by authority figures. Cops tell us to depend on them for our safety, not, God forbid, defend ourselves. Teachers tell us to depend on them to teach our kids, do not attempt this on yopur own. Politicians tell us to depend on them to cure all ills of society, don't think you as an individual can solve problems.

[Mark]

Mark, you are comparing apples to oranges.

I'm not comparing apples to anything. I'm disputing the ideas that a). the public school system is set up to tear down the family structure and that b). people who pay taxes are less likely to support someone in need.

Libertarians have a belief in self-responsibility, which is discouraged by authority figures.

Me too, which is why at the end of the day, my choices are mine alone and are not a product of government policies.

Cops tell us to depend on them for our safety, not, God forbid, defend ourselves.

How, specifically? In my city, the cops arm citizens with info on securing homes and cars, having emergency plans, preventing crime, etc., and do nothing at all to discourage self-defense.

Teachers tell us to depend on them to teach our kids, do not attempt this on yopur own.

I can't speak for the teachers you may have had, but parental involvement is heavily encouraged at my son's school. It always was at my schools, too. In fact, one of my mother's biggest complaints is that parents aren't involved enough anymore. She's been a fourth-grade teacher for 30+ years, by the way, and I've never caught her plotting about how to usurp parental authority. I'm willing to allow for the possibility that she might just be doing her job wrong, though.

Politicians tell us to depend on them to cure all ills of society, don't think you as an individual can solve problems.

Hey, we agree on something, at least...

[Michael Fisher]

I'm not comparing apples to anything. I'm disputing the ideas that a). the public school system is set up to tear down the family structure and that b). people who pay taxes are less likely to support someone in need.

I do not believe public schools were created for the purpose of destroying the family structure.  But that is still their result.

You may be misunderstanding our point of view.  We didn't say the children were blameless.  They carry absolute responsibility for their actions.  We're only saying that government schools are also responsible for contributing to the children's irresponsibility.

[Mark]

I'm not comparing apples to anything. I'm disputing the ideas that a). the public school system is set up to tear down the family structure and that b). people who pay taxes are less likely to support someone in need.

I do not believe public schools were created for the purpose of destroying the family structure.  But that is still their result.

You may be misunderstanding our point of view.  We didn't say the children were blameless.  They carry absolute responsibility for their actions.  We're only saying that government schools are also responsible for contributing to the children's irresponsibility.

I don't think I'm misunderstanding. I'm disagreeing with the notion that any government agency shares any portion of the blame for my moral failings.

[Michael Fisher]

I'm not comparing apples to anything. I'm disputing the ideas that a). the public school system is set up to tear down the family structure and that b). people who pay taxes are less likely to support someone in need.

I do not believe public schools were created for the purpose of destroying the family structure.? But that is still their result.

You may be misunderstanding our point of view.? We didn't say the children were blameless.? They carry absolute responsibility for their actions.? We're only saying that government schools are also responsible for contributing to the children's irresponsibility.

I don't think I'm misunderstanding. I'm disagreeing with the notion that any government agency shares any portion of the blame for my moral failings.

That's exactly what I'm saying.  The children are 100% responsible.  Government schools help create irresponsible children, but each individual is morally responsible for breaking free from this indoctrination and taking 100% responsibility for their actions.  Children would exhibit far more responsibility if it weren't for government schools, but the blame still lies 100% with the children.

Even libertarians should not blame government schools for their irresponsibility, but we should still do our best to realize the cause of irresponsibility in our generation and seek to put an end to it.

[Mark]

Mike,

Do you feel the government deserves some of the credit for your offer to help this woman? After all, the government has created a system where we all give and give and give to support those in need. Perhaps the example set by the government was so influential on you that you felt a responsibility to step in and help.

What do you think?