anyone interested in 180 or 190 watts solar panels `about $700.00

[hydrodog]

I have a source for 2nd's ... they put out as much power and have the same longitivity as class a panels but at close to 1/2 the cost.....cells arent as smooth but if you did not know you wouldn't think they were anything but perfect

I'm new here but I wish to help nuture free thinking and renewable energy .... want to prepare for hard times.... make contacts ..... will not ask more than 6% over my cost.......

last winter set up some of these panels in Mass.... hooked them up to a 1000w electric heat strip and it went a long way with heat in the house during the days....... this is the cheapest way I know of to use panels ... so you don't have to do an inverter ... batteries.... or a grid hookup......
chris k

[MaineShark]

At 1000W, and only when there's sun, and even assuming that the oil system is only 50% efficient, you're only talking about offsetting maybe 25 gallons of oil per year.  So, given the cost of the panels (you'd need 6 to power that heating element), and ignoring installation costs, you're looking at over 30 years to recoup that investment.

Those are using very generous numbers.  I think it would actually wear out before it paid for itself.

Solar electric is useful for powering a backup radio or something, but there are many better ways to be off-grid in NH (wood heat being, in all probability, the biggest).

Not meaning to rain on your parade, and I like your enthusiasm.  Just a bit of reality-check on PV, which really needs a decade or two of additional development.

Joe

[Free libertarian]

  Agreed PV panels aren't much good for running electric heating, but if you think about your uses it's a great way to go off the grid for household electricity as long as you aren't trying to live as wasteful as those who are on the grid do.  I won't be burning any oil though (except in the chain saw)... be burning trees and wearing long underwear, like alot of people this winter I suppose.


$700 isn't too bad for 180 or 190 watt panels... are they blemished Evergreen panels that weren't able to pass UL standards and earmarked for the Caribbean?  That's how I got ours $519 each for 170 watt panels, they're working good enough to send this message so screw the UL approval .   >:DA

[KBCraig]

The best use for PV as a heating aid, would be to power the auger on your pellet stove, and the pumps on your hydronic system. Through a battery bank, of course, so that you can still have heat when it's dark.

[MaineShark]

Agreed PV panels aren't much good for running electric heating, but if you think about your uses it's a great way to go off the grid for household electricity as long as you aren't trying to live as wasteful as those who are on the grid do.  I won't be burning any oil though (except in the chain saw)... be burning trees and wearing long underwear, like alot of people this winter I suppose.

Need to add batteries, chargers, inverters, and such if you want to be off-grid on PV.

Certainly possible, but a bit greater in the upfront and lifecycle expenses.

The best use for PV as a heating aid, would be to power the auger on your pellet stove, and the pumps on your hydronic system. Through a battery bank, of course, so that you can still have heat when it's dark.

Pellet stoves aren't electrically-efficient.  A wood boiler is a better choice for being off-grid.  Pumps and controls require very little power to run, and the boiler requires either little or none, depending on the exact boiler.

Theoretically, if someone wants to design an off-grid home from the beginning, we could use a gravity (convection) system for circulation, and milivolt thermostats (operated by thermocouples, drawing a tiny amount of energy from the heat of the boiler), and have a heating system that requires no electric power.  But that's a complex bit of engineering to do right, and would be hard to retrofit to an existing home.

Joe

[Free libertarian]

When you measure the cost of running power lines into a good house spot that's far from the power lines it gets easier to justify the expense.  I

[Free libertarian]

 You don't have to invert but we do, it's possible to just go Direct current, but it would be a little unusual for some people.  If you shop hard and do it yourself you can get a reasonable PV set up for $5-6,000.
We have an outback mx 60 charge controller, trojan batteries and a 3600 watt inverter / charger fed by 6 170 watt panels...been good so far, hardly ever have to use a generator, this time of year we are often making more juice than we can use or store.


Maine Shark - I'm interested in how much a small outdoor wood burner would use in watts per day
if it was powering circulator pump etc.  I'd love to consider an outdoor burner for the ability to throw in larger pieces of wood.  Any idea on power draw?
I'd probably just put in 5 or 6 baseboards for hot water heat...small house...stingy owner.   

[MaineShark]

You don't have to invert but we do, it's possible to just go Direct current, but it would be a little unusual for some people.  If you shop hard and do it yourself you can get a reasonable PV set up for $5-6,000.
We have an outback mx 60 charge controller, trojan batteries and a 3600 watt inverter / charger fed by 6 170 watt panels...been good so far, hardly ever have to use a generator, this time of year we are often making more juice than we can use or store.

If I recall correctly, you're running a propane fridge, though, right? 

Maine Shark - I'm interested in how much a small outdoor wood burner would use in watts per day
if it was powering circulator pump etc.  I'd love to consider an outdoor burner for the ability to throw in larger pieces of wood.  Any idea on power draw?
I'd probably just put in 5 or 6 baseboards for hot water heat...small house...stingy owner.

Well, those outdoor boilers don't generally come in "small."  They come in "large," "very large," "ridiculously large," etc.  Sometimes you can find one that's "medium."  Their efficiencies tend to be from "medium" to "ridiculously low." (as low as ~15% in tests)  That means a lot more wood burned, and also a lot more electricity used to run pumps and fans.

A small European indoor boiler would be a better option.  You can install it right next to the house and build a lean-to over it, if you want it outdoors.  Being next to the house would reduce the piping distances, which means smaller pumps.  The boiler, itself, is operated by thermo-mechanical controls, so no electrical power is required.  If we used radiators instead of baseboard, the pump could draw as little as 10W at 12VDC, depending on the size and heat load of the building.  An AC pump would probably draw 50-60W.  In either case, it would only draw that while running - the exact duty cycle would have to be determined based upon the exact system.

Joe

[Free libertarian]

Yes we have a propane fridge, we use about one 20 lb. bottle every 20-24 days, wish we could get out of that. Been scheming  of converting to methane and getting some oinkers to contribute their dung to a methane converter.
I'm good on concepts but not sure if the methane conversion thing is something I can do without at least seeing one working and some hand holding from somebody with a Shitology degree.  Unfortunately Shitology degreed people are hard to find.  I'd love to talk to anyone who has info. or knows anyone that burns methane in a typical sized propane stove or propane fridge.
 
The other option would be to pickup a dedicated PV panel or two and buying an expensive super insulated electric fridge or converting a chest freezer to a low draw fridge.  I've got the chest freezer already and an external thermostat to switch it from freezer to fridge...just haven't done it yet. I've heard you can get them to draw as low as 250 watts per day if they're insulated properly. One 170 ish watt dedicated panel might cover me there, then if the pigs are providing methane for the stove and fridge, I'm happy as, well, a pig in shit! 

Hydro dog - can you get PV components too, like charge controllers, batteries etc. or just panels?

MaineShark - When you say small European boiler...do you mean wood fired? Wood I can get with some sweat, oil's not happening for me though.  I didn't realize the outdoor boilers were that inefficient...is it because of heat loss to the atmosphere and the ground, distance to the house?  Actually when I think of it replacing our windows is probably the single biggest thing I should consider when it comes to heating. When the winter winds blow and the curtains move that's usually an indication the windows are shot.

If anyone has any info on Trombe walls that would be cool too. We have a south facing wall that gets decent sun in winter and I might try hanging a glazed enclosure on that side of the house to catch some "free" heat. Anyone got a solar heat contact that likes to talk about stuff or would be willing to
offer advice? I'm probably not going with a commercial apparatus, more likely to try building my own so I wouldn't want to waste anyone's time that's looking for a sale, but I do love talking about this kind of stuff as I learn alot from everybody and maybe I can pass it on.  Budget constraints = mother of invention= do it myself. 

[MaineShark]

I'd love to talk to anyone who has info. or knows anyone that burns methane in a typical sized propane stove or propane fridge.

Generally, there's no major difficulty in converting a stove.  Just get a natural-gas conversion kit.  However, compressing and storing the methane are the bigger hurdles.

Not all propane refrigerators are convertible.

Other option might be to build your own absorption refrigerator.  You boil it (over a wood fire, I suppose) in the morning, which starts the process, then place the cold side into a chest freezer (on a home-made, insulated box).  Over the course of the day, the reaction inside makes the cold side get cold.  Once the reaction ends, you boil it again to reset it.  I'm sure I can find plans somewhere for one of the simple ammonia-based units.

MaineShark - When you say small European boiler...do you mean wood fired? Wood I can get with some sweat, oil's not happening for me though.

Yup, I meant wood.  There are some decent small boilers that don't break the bank, and still achieve about 65% efficiency.

I didn't realize the outdoor boilers were that inefficient...is it because of heat loss to the atmosphere and the ground, distance to the house?

The buried pipe is very efficient (at least, the expensive stuff is - the cheap stuff ain't worth the trouble).  There's some loss to the atmosphere, but most of the inefficiency is in the design of the boiler.  The most common sorts are just a barrel within a barrel, with water trapped between the two layers, and a fire inside the inner barrel.  Add a penetration for the door, and another for the smoke to get out, and you're done.  Very simple, but no heat exchanger, and no secondary combustion.  Most of the energy in wood is in the wood gases, which don't get used without secondary combustion.

Basically, the typical outdoor boiler is an incinerator whose purpose is to burn wood, and happens to have some ability to capture a small amount of heat from that.  A proper boiler's purpose is to capture heat energy, and only burn the amount of fuel needed to accomplish that.

Drop me an email, and I'll send you some information on wood boiler options.

Joe

[hydrodog]

I'm just north of bellow falls most days.....if anyone wants to drop by I run a small hydro.... if we can set a time .... I'll meet ya at the vermont country store .... give ya a tour of the station and yes components are available.... some rebuit stuff as well as new....
I'd like to meet anyone interested in renewables...... am planning on getting down to the social sunday thing in keene end of this week......

[KBCraig]

The best use for PV as a heating aid, would be to power the auger on your pellet stove, and the pumps on your hydronic system. Through a battery bank, of course, so that you can still have heat when it's dark.

Pellet stoves aren't electrically-efficient.  A wood boiler is a better choice for being off-grid.  Pumps and controls require very little power to run, and the boiler requires either little or none, depending on the exact boiler.

Theoretically, if someone wants to design an off-grid home from the beginning...

Quite true, but I read the question as applying to a switch-over from traditional, not a from-scratch off-grid system. The latter can definitely be more efficient.

Speaking of heat and electricity, is anyone using Peltier junctions to convert some of that heat into microvoltage for systems control?

[MaineShark]

I'm just north of bellow falls most days.....if anyone wants to drop by I run a small hydro.... if we can set a time .... I'll meet ya at the vermont country store .... give ya a tour of the station and yes components are available.... some rebuit stuff as well as new....
I'd like to meet anyone interested in renewables...... am planning on getting down to the social sunday thing in keene end of this week......

Micro-hydro sounds more interesting than solar, from a practicality standpoint.  Of course, if your lot is like mine, it's not an option.  We have a small stream, but the drop is only a few feet, and there's no way to build a dam.

Still, if I can get over there when you're doing it, that's something I'd like to learn more about.

Quite true, but I read the question as applying to a switch-over from traditional, not a from-scratch off-grid system. The latter can definitely be more efficient.

Wood boilers can be fit into an existing system.  There will be some pump power needed, but not huge amounts.  Pumps are dramatically more efficient than fans.

Speaking of heat and electricity, is anyone using Peltier junctions to convert some of that heat into microvoltage for systems control?

I'm not personally aware of them being used.  I wouldn't be surprised if they were, but given the cost difference between thermocouples and Peltier junctions, their use would be rare.

Joe

[hydrodog]

maine guy ya sound interesting...... would like to chat with ya..... I think we both are doers,,,,,.I'll be at social sunday if it doesn't rain..... if it rains then it up in the air.... being a waterfarmer has its ups and downs.....

[Pat McCotter]

I'm just north of bellow falls most days.....if anyone wants to drop by I run a small hydro.... if we can set a time .... I'll meet ya at the vermont country store .... give ya a tour of the station and yes components are available.... some rebuit stuff as well as new....
I'd like to meet anyone interested in renewables...... am planning on getting down to the social sunday thing in keene end of this week......

What size is your small hydro station? I just resigned a hydro job for medical reasons and our small units were 1MW to 5MW in size. We had 6 in NH, 1in ME, 2 in VT and 1 in NY.