Coerced health insurance vs. hefty private health care costs

[memenode]

This is a topic I haven't thought about much, but started to bother me slightly as I realized something today. I apparently have a government health insurance, expiring in 2011, which I apparently have a right to through my parents. I suppose taxes they had to pay or special welfare arrangements (I'm not sure what exactly) made sure of that. The only taxes I ever pay in this country is the value added tax that is unavoidable as it is embedded in the price of probably all products I buy. So, aside from that, I mostly give nothing to the state in exchange for this health insurance service.

That said, as I became a voluntaryist I stopped feeling guilty about the fact that my business isn't yet registered and that I don't pay taxes. Instead, the guilt turned into a desire not to ever pay, if I can help it, because I do not want to fund the coercive monopoly. I therefore also don't really care anymore about obtaining any of the government's services, including this health insurance. When I told this to my mother (and we touched on that subject today as we were talking late tonight after my sister's birthday party), she asked what am I going to do if I ever get sick and don't have health insurance. I said I'll go to private firms and she said that for a simple check up they charge equivalent to $100 USD. My response was: "well, of course, since there's no competition". I was of course aluding to the fact that government's regulation and monopolization makes it hard for private firms to compete and therefore push prices down.

So, the predicament I find myself in is this. As someone who does not want to cooperate with and fund the government, I don't want their health insurance, whether they say I have to have it or not. But then, should I get really sick before I start earning enough money for these hefty prices not to be a big deal, what am I going to do? The only alternative is government's health insurance which I want to avoid.

I am hoping and I believe that I will be healthy for a long time, and with the newly discovered mode of thinking I believe I will grow my business pretty heavily soon enough to catch up with the costs of private health, but this is a what if scenario. What should a civil disobeyer do when the only savior is the devil itself, so to speak, when the only option you have is to take from a coercive monopolist? And if you do, doesn't that make you kinda owe them some of the taxes they're asking you to pay?

I'd guess not, because their force is what causes the whole predicament in the first place, not to mention that I pay taxes which I cannot avoid anyway, so what care I might get might well be covered by what they already stole from me, right? But it's still a rather awkward situation and I'm sure most people, including my family, who know I don't want to cooperate with government, yet take some of their services, might find me a hypocrit - they just don't get the deeper issues involved.

What do you think? I'd guess there may have been people in similar situations here?

Also, how do you take care of your healthcare in New Hampshire? (I'm from Europe and maybe, if it becomes possible, a future mover to NH.)

Thanks

[PattyLee loves dogs]

What do you think? I'd guess there may have been people in similar situations here?

Unless you don't want to leave your house, you have to use roads that are paid for with taxes. I don't see a moral problem with people who use tax-paid services... just people who spend their lives creating the taxes and programs.

>Also, how do you take care of your healthcare in New Hampshire?

Same as any other Americans... buy prescription drugs and veterinary supplies from overseas on the Internet, go to private clinics in Thailand or China for major operations   

The US health care system is 90% socialist:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/walker/walker29.html

[John Edward Mercier]

Insurance though free market based is a hybrid, and thus has socialism built in.
A truly free market system would be pay-as-you-go... while insurance allows a socialization through mutual risk management.

[memenode]

Unless you don't want to leave your house, you have to use roads that are paid for with taxes.

Indeed, that's a very similar issue, and actually even less avoidable.

Same as any other Americans... buy prescription drugs and veterinary supplies from overseas on the Internet, go to private clinics in Thailand or China for major operations   

China has better private clinics than US? Geez.. Anyway, my question was actually how do civil disobeyers in NH deal with the health insurance issue..

The US health care system is 90% socialist:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/walker/walker29.html

Great article. Depressing truth..

Insurance though free market based is a hybrid, and thus has socialism built in.

If a health insurance company doesn't force people into becoming their customers then I think it's fine. It's still individuals who get to decide whether to use the system and thus delegate some of their responsibility to the company for a monthly fee, just as they are free to stop using it. I equate socialism with imposition of force in the name of common good. If force is not used the decision obviously falls onto an individual - hence individualism is applied by default. Socialism without coercion is not socialism (partly why I don't believe anarcho-socialism would ever work, it's self-contradicting).

A truly free market system would be pay-as-you-go... while insurance allows a socialization through mutual risk management.

I personally prefer pay-as-you go as well and in fact believe any health insurance service to be a very very poor way of dealing with this. There's been an interesting series of videos on that here: http://thefreedomchannel.blogspot.com/2008/06/2020-john-stossel-sick-in-america.html

Regards

[John Edward Mercier]

The actual insurance purchase is a mutualism in that you and I enter contract with the insurance company consensually... but we each recieve benefit not directly tied to our real costs.

Unlike your auto, where your personal claim history results in higher contract fees... most US insurance is group-based and highly regulated. Thus younger more healthy individuals tend to subsidize the others.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

China has better private clinics than US?

I'm sure some Chinese clinics are better than some US clinics. I think it speaks volumes that wealthy Canadians tend to come to the USA for treatment though. I think when you get into the "upper crust" of medicine it really becomes "access to services" and "specialists". Germany might have the best treatment for brain tumors, but the US might be better for cardiac treatments. From a birds eye view, most Western nations are essentially the same in terms of "how good care is". When those things are compared, it's usually "upfront cost to the average person" or "rate of insured persons" or the like.

Anyway, my question was actually how do civil disobeyers in NH deal with the health insurance issue

We don't have mandatory insurance here (some states do, but not NH and not me in Maryland) so it's handled as each person sees prudent. I have private medical expense insurance (technically speaking, only a healthy lifestyle is "health insurance", most people have expense mitigation services) that I pay for every month. I see a lot of issues with it, because the entire medical industry is so perverted by government, but I don't as of right now see ethical issues with it. I'm fully aware that it's essentially gambling on the average rate of claim, but that's what ALL insurance is and when entered into voluntarily, I see no issue with it.

I think J'Raxis is opposed to insurance and we're very ideologically similar, so I don't think it's as cut and dry as can be.

John Edward Mercier brings up the "pay as you go" thing, and in a free market, I agree that would be how it works. With competition between health care providers and patients in control the price for all but the most catastrophic services would drop well into the realm of affordability for most people essentially eliminating the need for insurance. The doctor monopoly raises costs to see doctors, the regulation on services that can ONLY be performed by doctors requires you see one. The expensive process to sell a drug without being raided means prescriptions are costly and even those require a doctor's signature (which cost you enough to offset 12 years of mandatory schooling even if what's being prescribed is a double-dose of an over the counter medication).

[John Edward Mercier]

Are there any services that can only be performed by a doctor?
I think in NH anyone can perform most services, but can not present themselves as 'trained and licensed' to do so (which would be fraud). And that individuals seeking those services have no claim to malpractice.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

Are there any services that can only be performed by a doctor?

Authorize the distribution of a controlled substance via prescription, for one. I've heard horror stories (though unconfirmed, admittedly) of people who were left in pain while a nurse found a doctor because of legislation prohibiting anyone but a doctor from performing a procedure. I know that my wife sat in an exam room for 45 minutes waiting for a doctor to remove her sutures when she sliced her finger open with a cat food can. I also recall my mother (a nurse)  giving and removing my sutures when I was a kid, so it might have been the "times" or the state or just hospital policy, but I'm CERTAIN there are people being denied reasonably safe treatment options because the person performing them does not have an MD.

[Luck]

You folks are naive. 90% of medical treatments make people more unhealthy. It's far better to learn natural food, herbal & other alternative treatments on the internet. About the only medical treatments that are any good are first aid. Read Dr. Mercola at http://mercola.com. He's a libertarian and Ron Paul supporter and one of the most popular health sites on the net. And he's bluntly honest in stating that drug companies and doctors cause most of the deaths each year in the U.S.

[memenode]

We don't have mandatory insurance here (some states do, but not NH and not me in Maryland)

Another reason to move hehe.

I really don't see how can anyone justify coerced health insurance... Oh wait.. you pay for somebody elses health I suppose? Right, "common good" strikes again.

You folks are naive. 90% of medical treatments make people more unhealthy. It's far better to learn natural food, herbal & other alternative treatments on the internet.

To be honest, I tend to believe you, albeit I am not sure these treatments really make people more unhealthy and it probably depends on where we're speaking off, but I certainly better like the idea of "home made health" than visiting doctors, especially those paid by the government. I've bookmarked that site in my "Liberty" bookmarks folder, thanks.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

You folks are naive. 90% of medical treatments make people more unhealthy. It's far better to learn natural food, herbal & other alternative treatments on the internet.

Snap, and I thought my the medical decisions I make about my own body were the best ones. Drat.

Funny thing about humans, we're all gonna die. I'm not concerned much about disease, more injury. You're welcome to read up on "alternative" medicine if you'd like, I'll keep my insurance so my prostetics or wheelchairs are covered when my legs are crushed in a car accident. I put a lot of stock in the universe, the human body and the laws of physics, and as twisted and convoluted as it is with government influence, I trust medicine.

Granted, there's a ton of stuff that, for reasons X, Y, and Z never gets put into the patient's range of options, but that's not an issue of the effectiveness of medicine itself. Weigh all your options with people you trust. Dismissing "established" medical science for holistic treatments is as stupid as dismissing holistic ones for established ones.

[memenode]

I didn't really read much of that site yet, but.. yeah I am open to alternatives, but wouldn't totally dismiss "official" medicine. We just ought to pick for ourselves wisely, or as wisely as we can. Health and medicine stuff is one of my weak spots, tbh... I just hope I remain healthy for a long time and my usual antidote for feeling unwell are vitamin juices, tea, a little more vegetables, sleep and a good attitude (believing I'll get well). So far... I seem to be doing ok.

[John Edward Mercier]

Are there any services that can only be performed by a doctor?

Authorize the distribution of a controlled substance via prescription, for one. I've heard horror stories (though unconfirmed, admittedly) of people who were left in pain while a nurse found a doctor because of legislation prohibiting anyone but a doctor from performing a procedure. I know that my wife sat in an exam room for 45 minutes waiting for a doctor to remove her sutures when she sliced her finger open with a cat food can. I also recall my mother (a nurse)  giving and removing my sutures when I was a kid, so it might have been the "times" or the state or just hospital policy, but I'm CERTAIN there are people being denied reasonably safe treatment options because the person performing them does not have an MD.

Mostly fear of liability. Lots of tests are just to protect from any liability suits.
They also tend to give a bleak worst case scenario when advising on the situation for the same reason.

[William]

Number 1, stay healthy. Yes, we will all die eventually. Analogy: Your car will break down eventually, however, if you never check the oil or change the air filter, check the tire pressure and dump crappy fuel in the tank, don't be surprised when you get stranded. And don't blame the manufacturer (bad genes) because you refused to do general maintenance. There are dozens of "diseases" and conditions that can result from a lack of vitamin c which is just one of many vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, proteins and amino acids necessary for your body to function properly.

2, if you get in a car wreck, get shot or fall off a cliff, by all means go to a hospital. Aside from that, you're probably wasting time and money. The profession is a dismal failure at curing illness.

3, if you have to go, pay cash. I can tell you from experience that they will deal to the tune of 50% or more. Most of the bill will be bullshit and you can easily cut a quarter of it just by taking it line by line. They pad it knowing that medicare will pay or they'll end up negotiating with an insurance company anyways.

[William]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/08/28/ep.medical.debt/index.html


See mistakes number 2 and 3. This is very common.