kucinich's speech at DNC 8/26/08

[keith in RI]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv0smG7ptcM


pretty good speech if you ask me....... but is anyone listening?

[K. Darien Freeheart]

I stopped listening about 3 minutes in. Horrible speech, he blames the Republicans for everything unless he's blaming the oil companies. "Go blue team" is his purpose, and he never questions the idea that the sport itself is evil.

[J’raxis 270145]

I stopped listening about 3 minutes in. Horrible speech, he blames the Republicans for everything unless he's blaming the oil companies. "Go blue team" is his purpose, and he never questions the idea that the sport itself is evil.

When we had the big Ron Paul rally in Manchester, we were allied with the Kucinich people about 80% of the time.

Many people on the left are only an economics lesson away from being libertarians. They're already mostly anti-government, anti-corporation, pro–personal freedom; what they usually lack is the understanding that their socialist or welfare-statist schemes won't fix the problems.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

Many people on the left are only an economics lesson away from being libertarians

Understood. If that "left-right" thing matters, I'd say I came from the left. Sam Konkin III seemed to believe that libertarianism was also a movement of the left naturally. My criticism comes less from the people that are pretty close to the people who aren't. You may have reached people in the rally, but I'm certain that that speech just cemented in some people's minds that "persuit of profit is evil and Republicans are bad".

They're already mostly anti-government, anti-corporation, pro–personal freedom; what they usually lack is the understanding that their socialist or welfare-statist schemes won't fix the problems.

And Kucinich's speech didn't do much to reveal that, IMO.

[Sam A. Robrin]

Many people on the left are only an economics lesson away from being libertarians. They're already mostly anti-government, anti-corporation, pro–personal freedom; what they usually lack is the understanding that their socialist or welfare-statist schemes won't fix the problems.

I thought so, too, for quite a while, but the more I heard, the more I came to realize that the major motivation of your typical leftie is the control of large masses of people, and all those issues you mention that they purport to believe in are just camouflage to obfuscate a truth they can't admit to without obliterating their case.

[J’raxis 270145]

Many people on the left are only an economics lesson away from being libertarians. They're already mostly anti-government, anti-corporation, pro–personal freedom; what they usually lack is the understanding that their socialist or welfare-statist schemes won't fix the problems.

I thought so, too, for quite a while, but the more I heard, the more I came to realize that the major motivation of your typical leftie is the control of large masses of people, and all those issues you mention that they purport to believe in are just camouflage to obfuscate a truth they can't admit to without obliterating their case.

This is definitely true of welfare statists (after all, the welfare state was invented by statists as a counter to all the communist uprisings of 1848), Marxists, Leninists, and the like, but a lot of anarchism originates from the extreme left.

[lastlady]

Yes I agree with this, but don't they love their "free" health care and welfare too much to really get on board? I am hopeful either way! If they get the right information, they generally do care about people and would want to do what would be best. Just have to get to them to understand the idea of self determination and why government is the problem not the solution.

I stopped listening about 3 minutes in. Horrible speech, he blames the Republicans for everything unless he's blaming the oil companies. "Go blue team" is his purpose, and he never questions the idea that the sport itself is evil.

When we had the big Ron Paul rally in Manchester, we were allied with the Kucinich people about 80% of the time.

Many people on the left are only an economics lesson away from being libertarians. They're already mostly anti-government, anti-corporation, pro–personal freedom; what they usually lack is the understanding that their socialist or welfare-statist schemes won't fix the problems.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

Yes I agree with this, but don't they love their "free" health care and welfare too much to really get on board?

Not all Democrats support universal healthcare, I didn't when I called myself a Democrat. The Democrats I've seen, on average, aren't extremely poor but are actually usually college educated people with full time jobs. For a lot of them, it really is about "other people" since they've already got access to healthcare. (Of course, some believe that socialist healthcare would improve generally what people have access to meaning their care would improve.)

I am very much of the opinion that leftists are much easier to point towards liberty. Unless you're talking Che Guevara, most socialists actually do object to the use of violence and simply don't connect "the state" with "violence". Once this can be show, the rest falls into place. Overcoming that "law and order" mentality, or the all to frequent "I have no problem using violence" is something I've seen almost entirely from the right.

Just have to get to them to understand the idea of self determination and why government is the problem not the solution.

I understand the point you're meaning, but I'd like to offer a subtle shift in that. Most "liberals" I've met are actually not very logical people. This isn't an insult, but most oftenly they're very "emoitional" people. You'll hear former "conservatives" talk about how inefficient the government is, but you'll hear former liberals talk about how "cruel" or "unethical" it is. Both positions are obviously correct (or equally incorrect, since they fail to recognize they're partly the same thing) but depending on who you're talking with, the presentation might be the difference between someone hating Republicans for making inefficient government or someone realizing the whole system is stacked against people.

I've found with "liberals" it's best not to tear down government, but show how the free market offers better solutions. "Down with government" leaves them with "What about the poor people?". "Free market health care would drive down the cost of medical services, putting it well within the range of most except the extremely poor. With more money in the average person's pockets, there would be more charity given, and the ultra-poor would still receive a reasonable level of care." leaves them asking "Why do we need government?" and that's how to get the liberal snowball moving.

[Josh]

I certainly don't even see a left/right political view structure, but rather a circle, if that makes sense. I was a rabid socialist for a long time, and not because I wanted to control anyone, but because I thought the gov't 'owed' people things like health care. All it took was an economics lesson to see where the problems are.
No one would have to beg gov't for health care if gov't would stay out of it and let the market dictate, which would ensure that health care is available to the less fortunate, not to mention voluntary charity systems.
The extreme left and extreme right meet at a libertarian juncture, as far as I can tell.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

I agree for the most part. It's why I've made heavy use of quotes. But a lot of the propaganda tells people they need to fit into a slot somewhere in this left/right spectrum and as bad as it sucks, a lot of people do identify with those labels.

[Josh]

a lot of people do identify with those labels.

And those people are free to enslave themselves 

[lildog]

Many people on the left are only an economics lesson away from being libertarians. They're already mostly anti-government, anti-corporation, pro–personal freedom; what they usually lack is the understanding that their socialist or welfare-statist schemes won't fix the problems.

Couple points...

a) Corporations per say are not the problem.  Government laws that help and/or hurt free markets while "protecting" corporations are the problems.

b) I have to say I strongly disagree with your claim that the left are pro-personal freedom.  The left are the ones seeking to ban smoking, force seat belts and other safety precautions "for your own good", ban trans fat, take away guns from law abiding citizens, force min wage laws on private business owners etc etc etc...  From what I see they are about as far from personal freedom as you can get.  And forcing someone to pay for socialist programs they disagree with is about as far from personal freedom as you can get.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

Corporations per say are not the problem.

Actually, the very existance of corporations is something that is antithetical to my general outlook. Corporations are fictional "entities" created by the government with the purpose of creating a disconnect between the functionings of a business and the people who make that happen.

Human beings have rights (including the ability to own property) but corporations do not. Human beings have ethics, not corporations. Human beings are responsible for their actions, corporations are not.

Corporations, like government, create this shield for people who do bad things and it's really hard for me to accept the existence of them when one of the biggest parts of my "platform" is "personal responsibility".

[lildog]

Corporations per say are not the problem.

Actually, the very existance of corporations is something that is antithetical to my general outlook. Corporations are fictional "entities" created by the government with the purpose of creating a disconnect between the functionings of a business and the people who make that happen.

Human beings have rights (including the ability to own property) but corporations do not. Human beings have ethics, not corporations. Human beings are responsible for their actions, corporations are not.

Corporations, like government, create this shield for people who do bad things and it's really hard for me to accept the existence of them when one of the biggest parts of my "platform" is "personal responsibility".

That's kind of what I was talking about when I was discussing government laws.  It's not the "corporation", it's the laws that are the problems.

[David]

Authority is the problem.  Both sides embrace it.  The gop seems to make a virtual religion out of it.  That is my big beef with them.     The left is naive about it.  They think they can control it.