kucinich's speech at DNC 8/26/08

[J’raxis 270145]

Many people on the left are only an economics lesson away from being libertarians. They're already mostly anti-government, anti-corporation, pro–personal freedom; what they usually lack is the understanding that their socialist or welfare-statist schemes won't fix the problems.

Couple points...

a) Corporations per say are not the problem.  Government laws that help and/or hurt free markets while "protecting" corporations are the problems.

Corporations in their present form are State-created entities. In a completely free world, you would no doubt have collectively-run businesses that much resemble modern corporations, but there would be some extremely important differences: Things like limited liability and "intellectual property" could only exist on a contractual basis.

b) I have to say I strongly disagree with your claim that the left are pro-personal freedom.  The left are the ones seeking to ban smoking, force seat belts and other safety precautions "for your own good", ban trans fat, take away guns from law abiding citizens, force min wage laws on private business owners etc etc etc...  From what I see they are about as far from personal freedom as you can get.  And forcing someone to pay for socialist programs they disagree with is about as far from personal freedom as you can get.

You're describing welfare statists, not the far left.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

I have to say I strongly disagree with your claim that the left are pro-personal freedom.  The left are the ones seeking to ban smoking, force seat belts and other safety precautions "for your own good", ban trans fat, take away guns from law abiding citizens, force min wage laws on private business owners etc etc etc..

Nobody accused them of being pro-liberty either, the arguement is that they're easier to convert. All of the things you mentioned are "helping people out" things. Unlike members of the right who want to, and I quote "Bomb them to glass",  the leftists actually have good intentions with horrible fallout. When it can be shown that those "helping people out" goals can be met without the government, the desire to help people moves them to action.

Granted, I'm sure there are some people who absolutely believe that the government people must control everything. There are authoritarians of left and right bents. Additionally, I might be biased because I'm a "liberal turned voluntaryist" and I've quite admittedly still got a bit of hostility towards so-called "conservatives" but we're ALL prisoners of our own experiences.

[Lloyd Danforth]

Many people on the left are only an economics lesson away from being libertarians

Understood. If that "left-right" thing matters, I'd say I came from the left. Sam Konkin III seemed to believe that libertarianism was also a movement of the left naturally. My criticism comes less from the people that are pretty close to the people who aren't. You may have reached people in the rally, but I'm certain that that speech just cemented in some people's minds that "persuit of profit is evil and Republicans are bad".

They're already mostly anti-government, anti-corporation, pro–personal freedom; what they usually lack is the understanding that their socialist or welfare-statist schemes won't fix the problems.

And Kucinich's speech didn't do much to reveal that, IMO.

Although he has written more about the movement than I have, Konkin appears to have a poor memory. The modern libertarian movement was founded by 'right' libertarians, some of whom, (Rothbard, etc.) actively sought out members of the left.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

Although he has written more about the movement than I have, Konkin appears to have a poor memory. The modern libertarian movement was founded by 'right' libertarians

I think Konkin was referring more in a philisophical "Libertarianism is ideologically a movement of the right" than a historical "Libertarianism was historically a movement of the right". Again, in that regard, I don't care too much either way because I don't believe there's really such thing as "left" or "right" though I believe there are certain mixes of viewpoints that I can associate with the terms.

[lildog]

Nobody accused them of being pro-liberty either, the arguement is that they're easier to convert.

I'm sorry but I just disagree.  My wife is a registered Democrat and we have a lot of Democrat friends and every single one of them is as big a government supporter as you can find.  They push for more local, more state and more federal government every chance they get.  They see government as the solution to every problem that comes up, even when they admit that the government caused the original problem in the first place.

On the other hand most Republicans that I know support the idea of less government, lower taxes, less regulations and laws governing our lives.  They are the ones more in line with what libertarians claim to believe.

Democrats will claim to support liberty right up until they see something they disagree with then they'll be the first ones turning to the government to stop the offender from doing what it is they don't like.  Heck, I know democrats who like the idea of having laws preventing unmowed and forcing people to maintain a clean curbside appearance.

They believe we need more government jobs to help the job market and don't see it as a problem when asked what happens when 50%+ of the population become government employees.

Show me a democrat who can be converted and I'll show you someone who was immature when they first registered and didn't know too much about parties or someone who was confused about their beliefs in the first place or perhaps an older JFK democrat (which I would argue is not much different from today's republican).

Granted, I'm sure there are some people who absolutely believe that the government people must control everything. There are authoritarians of left and right bents. Additionally, I might be biased because I'm a "liberal turned voluntaryist" and I've quite admittedly still got a bit of hostility towards so-called "conservatives" but we're ALL prisoners of our own experiences.

Kevin, I find far more on the left who really believe government must control everything then not.  As I said, perhaps you were a confused democrat at one point.  I have meet them... people who agree more with the Republican party as a whole but vote big government democrat solely because they oppose Iraq.  They know next to nothing about local and state politicians but vote based on their opposition of Iraq so they support big government democrats all the way down the board.

[Sam A. Robrin]

There are your entrenched, usually long-time buck lefties, who are exactly as you describe.  Having firmly established that they are the very embodiment of Good, all who oppose them must, by definition, be Bad, and therefore worthy only having the full force of the law brought down upon them. 
      I've met a few "fawn" lefties--usually young--who are genuinely concerned with doing good, and can be shown the prod behind the program without a lot of loud sputtering denial.  Hell, come to think of it, I was one!  Only by first observing the bad behavior of my fellow travelers was I able finally to face the painful truth that I was the same way, and from there make the requisite changes.  Some can, but it's not easy.

[Luke S]

Corporations in their present form are State-created entities.

This would explain a lot of things, and my gut tells me that this is true. Would you care to elaborate more on this point?

[Giggan]

Lefties can sometimes be pro-freedom, but only when it meshes with their utopian worldview...just like the right wingers.

The problem is too many people thinking they can do the right thing at gunpoint. Some people are so close to being pro-liberty but may never get there because they're so closed-minded and won't take the leap of thought. Then I know people who were once sympathetic to totalitarians who are now pro-liberty. It's hard to gauge who will actually free their minds.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

This would explain a lot of things, and my gut tells me that this is true. Would you care to elaborate more on this point?

Corporations today are essentially a collection of paperwork in some government office's hard drive. Legally speaking, however, corporations are "legal entitites" capable of owning and selling property, having income and they "bear responsibility" for what is done in the name of the corporation.

The problems with this come because you remove human responsibility from the actions of the people behind the corporation. If Matel made a toy with lead paint (for instance) and it poisoned a kid, the corporation would be sued, but the lab techs that certified the toy safe, the managers who looked the other way when filling out the purchase order and all those people would not be responsible. Likewise, if a corporation is dumping mercury into a river, they settle a lawsuit and the people who signed off bear no burden to their victims.

If a mom and pop bakery, on the other hand, didn't follow food safety procedures and someone got sick, they'd loose their home and business in that lawsuit. In much the same way that government people aren't held to account for their actions, corporations shield people from their actions and that's not a healthy thing to foster in my eyes.

[J’raxis 270145]

Corporations in their present form are State-created entities.

This would explain a lot of things, and my gut tells me that this is true. Would you care to elaborate more on this point?

Simple—how do you go about creating a corporation? You fill out some forms given to you by the State, and then submit them to your Secretary of State's office along with a fee. The corporation comes into existence when they approve your paperwork.

[Luke S]

It's hard to gauge who will actually free their minds.

You know, when you libertarians say stuff like "He freed his mind", or "They freed their minds", you sound like those spiritualist yoga people that tie themselves in knots and say stuff like "Oogen boogen schmugen flugen, we shall free our minds. We shall ascend to a higher spiritual plane. Oogen boogen schmugen flugen". I'm not trying to be mean, but that's really what you sound like.

[Luke S]

This would explain a lot of things, and my gut tells me that this is true. Would you care to elaborate more on this point?

Corporations today are essentially a collection of paperwork in some government office's hard drive. Legally speaking, however, corporations are "legal entitites" capable of owning and selling property, having income and they "bear responsibility" for what is done in the name of the corporation.

The problems with this come because you remove human responsibility from the actions of the people behind the corporation. If Matel made a toy with lead paint (for instance) and it poisoned a kid, the corporation would be sued, but the lab techs that certified the toy safe, the managers who looked the other way when filling out the purchase order and all those people would not be responsible. Likewise, if a corporation is dumping mercury into a river, they settle a lawsuit and the people who signed off bear no burden to their victims.

If a mom and pop bakery, on the other hand, didn't follow food safety procedures and someone got sick, they'd loose their home and business in that lawsuit. In much the same way that government people aren't held to account for their actions, corporations shield people from their actions and that's not a healthy thing to foster in my eyes.

No, it certainly isn't. I now see what you people meant when you people were saying that modern corporations are state-created entities. Well I think that's unfair that corporate people can hide behind "corporations" and everyone else can't. What do you think should be done about it?

[David]

Luke, with freedom, comes responsibility to those whom you hurt.  Kevin sums up my beliefs on corps well.  A persons freedom can only rightfully be limited to not harming others.  Ask yourself this question-how can anyone rightfully evade responsibility for the harm that he causes, just because someone filled out gov't paperwork?  Your gut already answered.