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Author Topic: Visit a park in Manchester after 11PM or before 7AM  (Read 11153 times)

Giggan

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Re: Visit a park in Manchester after 11PM or before 7AM
« Reply #105 on: September 17, 2008, 01:05 PM NHFT »

Ryan got harassed by Secret Service? That's news to me, is there a link to hear more about that?
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: Visit a park in Manchester after 11PM or before 7AM
« Reply #106 on: September 18, 2008, 04:48 PM NHFT »

i'm thinking about ditching the 9/23 illegal litter pickup as a way of thanking mpd for their defense of ryan marvin against the secret service on saturday.    also i cannot find any other reports of new police shakedowns in the parks...tho i 'm checking.

technically i did not promise to repeat the act, but said they should "expect" us to.  so i feel i have enough wiggle room to cancel if that seems appropriate.

Does the fact that the police occasionally do something good negate the fact that most of the time they’re not?
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Mike Barskey

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Re: Visit a park in Manchester after 11PM or before 7AM
« Reply #107 on: September 18, 2008, 04:57 PM NHFT »

Does the fact that the police occasionally do something good negate the fact that most of the time they’re not?
Plus, by being in the park "after hours," you are protesting the police's enforcement of unposted restrictions on the use of public property. If you want to thank them for their good behavior in other realms, I think that's a good thing, but it seems to be unrelated to the purpose of and principles involved in this protest.
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: Visit a park in Manchester after 11PM or before 7AM
« Reply #108 on: September 18, 2008, 05:07 PM NHFT »

Does the fact that the police occasionally do something good negate the fact that most of the time they’re not?
Plus, by being in the park "after hours," you are protesting the police's enforcement of unposted restrictions on the use of public property. If you want to thank them for their good behavior in other realms, I think that's a good thing, but it seems to be unrelated to the purpose of and principles involved in this protest.

I think the “unposted restrictions” issue is secondary, and a distraction. Whether or not the restrictions are posted, they’re wrong.
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Mike Barskey

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Re: Visit a park in Manchester after 11PM or before 7AM
« Reply #109 on: September 18, 2008, 05:15 PM NHFT »

I think the “unposted restrictions” issue is secondary, and a distraction. Whether or not the restrictions are posted, they’re wrong.
I completely agree. But isn't the purpose of picking up litter in park after 11p or before 6a to show that people can and do use the park for safe, non-aggressive, and sometimes community-oriented reasons when the government says they can't? And if that is the purpose, then how is ceasing such a display/protest related to whether the police helped Ryan Marvin in an unrelated issue?

I don't think it is related. I think that if you want to thank the police for defending Ryan against the Secret Service, then you should thank them - send them a box of donuts, write a LTE thanking them in public, shake their hand personally - but you shouldn't stop protesting the other things they are doing wrong (like enforcing curfew on public parks).

I thought that's what you were saying, too.
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Dave Ridley

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Re: Visit a park in Manchester after 11PM or before 7AM
« Reply #110 on: September 19, 2008, 12:55 PM NHFT »

ok still mulling .... continue weighing in
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Giggan

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Re: Visit a park in Manchester after 11PM or before 7AM
« Reply #111 on: September 19, 2008, 07:20 PM NHFT »

I think the “unposted restrictions” issue is secondary, and a distraction. Whether or not the restrictions are posted, they’re wrong.
I completely agree. But isn't the purpose of picking up litter in park after 11p or before 6a to show that people can and do use the park for safe, non-aggressive, and sometimes community-oriented reasons when the government says they can't? And if that is the purpose, then how is ceasing such a display/protest related to whether the police helped Ryan Marvin in an unrelated issue?

I don't think it is related. I think that if you want to thank the police for defending Ryan against the Secret Service, then you should thank them - send them a box of donuts, write a LTE thanking them in public, shake their hand personally - but you shouldn't stop protesting the other things they are doing wrong (like enforcing curfew on public parks).

I thought that's what you were saying, too.

I kinda agree...however, not holding a protest/just delaying it as an open show of thanks may make it more apparent that Dave was pleased by their actions and is willing to alter something he takes seriously to show that gratitude. Not being protested against is probably something they'd prefer to being personally thanked, perhaps it may alter the image some police may have that the voluntaryist crowd is just out to make everything they do look like blind obedience to an oppressive force. I'm not saying the protest should be delayed, but if it seems like it's something they'd appreciate and think about, its something to consider.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Visit a park in Manchester after 11PM or before 7AM
« Reply #112 on: September 19, 2008, 07:42 PM NHFT »

By the CivDis your not injuring the MPD... your physically questioning a restrictive ordinance enacted by aldermen.
The MPD is just an intermediary between the public and aldermen.
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: Visit a park in Manchester after 11PM or before 7AM
« Reply #113 on: September 19, 2008, 08:17 PM NHFT »

I think the “unposted restrictions” issue is secondary, and a distraction. Whether or not the restrictions are posted, they’re wrong.

I completely agree. But isn't the purpose of picking up litter in park after 11p or before 6a to show that people can and do use the park for safe, non-aggressive, and sometimes community-oriented reasons when the government says they can't? And if that is the purpose, then how is ceasing such a display/protest related to whether the police helped Ryan Marvin in an unrelated issue?

I don't think it is related. I think that if you want to thank the police for defending Ryan against the Secret Service, then you should thank them - send them a box of donuts, write a LTE thanking them in public, shake their hand personally - but you shouldn't stop protesting the other things they are doing wrong (like enforcing curfew on public parks).

I thought that's what you were saying, too.

I was. ???

I was simply pointing out that the curfew is what we’re protesting. Some Manchester residents, if you read the UL articles, are merely upset at the fact that they’ve been ticketed for violating an unposted curfew, so I wanted to make it clear that that’s not our beef with the curfew—it’s the curfew itself.
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Mike Barskey

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Re: Visit a park in Manchester after 11PM or before 7AM
« Reply #114 on: September 19, 2008, 08:18 PM NHFT »

Ah, I see. My point would have been as lucid (or more) had I eliminated the word "unposted." Got it.
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Dave Ridley

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Re: Visit a park in Manchester after 11PM or before 7AM
« Reply #115 on: September 21, 2008, 12:26 PM NHFT »

Manchester: More unlawful trash pickup

NH: "Illegal litter pickup" grows in Manchester

What:  2nd Illegal litter pickup, other constructive lawbreaking
When:  10:45 - 11:45 p.m., Tuesday September 23, 2008
Where: Veterans Memorial Park, 889 Elm St., Manchester New Hampshire.  Starting on west side.
Why: Protest recent Manchester police shakedowns.  MPD has been fining (without warning) average,
  harmless people for simply being in city parks at the wrong hour.
How:  We'll clean litter from the park and keep an eye out for violent crime, at a time when citizens are forbidden from being there. In the process I and perhaps others will violate five bad 
  laws/ordinances.  There will be illegal jogging without orange vests, illegal placement of trash into milk containers, illegal hiring of citizens, illegal puppet shows.
Who:  Dave Ridley, 42, from Manchester + friends from NHFree.com. Projected turnout: 15.

9/21/08 Open Letter to Manchester Police Chief David Mara

Dear Chief Mara: 

I wanted to salute you for your wisdom in ignoring our curfew-violating litter pickup at Veterans Park on Sept. 5.   On Tuesday the 23rd you'll have the chance to ignore us again...or crack down on us as you have so many harmless parkgoers.

At 10:45 p.m. that night a group of us will again gather outside the park.  We'll first vioate the city ordinance that says you can't jog without a blaze orange vest.   Then we'll enter the park after curfew and repeat our litter-removing activities.  Since this is the fifth event in a "constructive disobedience series," I will harmlessly violate at least *five* bad laws or rules (in the absence of illness or emergency).  Besides breaching the victimless crime ordinances against jogging and being in the park, I'll hold a puppet show without a license, place trash into milk containers and hire a person for less than minimum wage.

Again: We aren't taking issue with your harassment of people for causing damage or threatening others.  It's the shakedowns of harmless folk, and the continued enforcement of victimless crime laws, which constitute the problem.   

There are times when your officers show great courage; probably they show it every day.  But that bravery is often wasted on morally questionable missions.  It's *wrong* to fine or jail people who aren't charged with harming or endangering others against their will.  It's a misuse of our money and misdirection of your talents.

When you ignored the Sept. 5 curfew violations, you tacitly acknowledged that it's not always good to enforce every rule.  You took a microscopic step toward a world where police protect us only from each other, not ourselves.  We can't make you step any further in that direction, but we can make you think about these things.  We can give you a choice between the wise use of discretion and the unwise use of force. 

On a side note, I wanted to thank you for something one of your officers apparently did the other day.   I understand he stuck up for Free Stater Ryan Marvin, when a Secret Service agent tried to keep him away from the Obama rally. I've broadcast news of this constructive intervention on my Youtube channel and hope that it will serve to ease any tensions that may exist between your institution and our movement.   In fact, it was almost enough to make me call off the event above.  But your victimeless-crime-arrests go on.  And for now, our "illegal beautification" endeavor goes on as well.

Yours,


Dave Ridley
NHFree.com
Manchester
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Mike Barskey

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Re: Visit a park in Manchester after 11PM or before 7AM
« Reply #116 on: September 21, 2008, 09:51 PM NHFT »

I will be there (and at Murphy's :) ).
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oscar_swede

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Re: Visit a park in Manchester after 11PM or before 7AM
« Reply #117 on: September 24, 2008, 10:28 AM NHFT »

At 10:45 p.m. that night a group of us will again gather outside the park.  We'll first vioate the city ordinance that says you can't jog without a blaze orange vest.   Then we'll enter the park after curfew and repeat our litter-removing activities.  Since this is the fifth event in a "constructive disobedience series," I will harmlessly violate at least *five* bad laws or rules (in the absence of illness or emergency).  Besides breaching the victimless crime ordinances against jogging and being in the park, I'll hold a puppet show without a license, place trash into milk containers and hire a person for less than minimum wage.

So how did things work out in the park?

Are you serious that those things are all considered crimes? I thought the Swedish government was good at making up bad laws, but these are all just downright silly. I was actually laughing out loud when I read this post.

/Swede
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Visit a park in Manchester after 11PM or before 7AM
« Reply #118 on: September 24, 2008, 11:01 AM NHFT »

Bad laws have created further bad laws... so yes they are ordinances, regulations, and statutes.
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: Visit a park in Manchester after 11PM or before 7AM
« Reply #119 on: September 24, 2008, 10:26 PM NHFT »

At 10:45 p.m. that night a group of us will again gather outside the park.  We'll first vioate the city ordinance that says you can't jog without a blaze orange vest.   Then we'll enter the park after curfew and repeat our litter-removing activities.  Since this is the fifth event in a "constructive disobedience series," I will harmlessly violate at least *five* bad laws or rules (in the absence of illness or emergency).  Besides breaching the victimless crime ordinances against jogging and being in the park, I'll hold a puppet show without a license, place trash into milk containers and hire a person for less than minimum wage.

So how did things work out in the park?

Are you serious that those things are all considered crimes? I thought the Swedish government was good at making up bad laws, but these are all just downright silly. I was actually laughing out loud when I read this post.

They ignored us again. At least 3–4 cop cars drove by.
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