Flag Burning 11/03

[Caleb]

One of the ways that really boils people's blood is to say this:

"Without resorting to an appeal to nationalism, please explain to me the difference between a Nazi soldier and a US Marine."

Does boiling their blood help open a dialogue? Rather than confirming (in their minds) that you're some kind of anti-American communist (nothing personal, Caleb    ), a redirection towards something that tests their way of thinking.

So, how about this: "Can you explain to me the difference between burning a flag, and stepping on a Qur'an?"

This immediately puts them in the position of facing the fact that their angry, violent response toward flag-burning is exactly like something they despise: a Muslim reacting angrily and violently toward desecration of their holy book.

Here's the thing, KB:  while going around offending people is NOT my goal in life, the fact of the matter is that symbols are very powerful in the human mind. For some psychological reason we seem to cling to them.  I do not think it is possible to undermine an idea without first attacking the symbol which represents it. Like it or not, the US flag is the symbol of "proud to be an American," which is exactly the attitude that causes the senseless warfare and bigotry. "Go back where you came from wetback!"  "Let's bomb those towelheads back to the stone age" ad nauseum.  When one's bigotries cause senseless suffering for others, the duty of every human is to challenge those bigotries. I see no profound difference between racism and nationalism. It is pretty much the same disease. And if America was not a multiethnic society, it would be more clear to us that racism and nationalism are nearly synonymous forms of the same stupidity.

Put more simply:  I see no difference between burning a US Flag and desecrating a symbol of the KKK. If a person is offended by this activity, it is not my fault but is, instead, caused by a defect in that person's own character.

[John]

if you are going to watch this ... how are you going to react?

Unfortunately I will be unable to be in Keene on that day. (Very tough work situation these days.)
If I could be there, I'd still be unwilling to burn a US or NH flag.
I would however stand with Jesse. Rights are very important to stand by.
I would maybe display/hold a US flag in the distress position ... camera in other hand ... I would surely position myself in a location most likely to deter an attack on Jesse ... If/when an attack was to begin I would (at a minimum) help slow the attack . . .

[Lloyd Danforth]

So....Caleb!  How many US flags have you burned, now?

[Russell Kanning]

I agree that there needs to be written material to go along with it, so people understand what you are saying. I am thinking a weekly flag burning (beginning on election day) until such time as the US is not engaging in any provocative activities around the world.

I like the idea.
I might join you if the feds ever let go of Kat.

[Russell Kanning]

I would maybe display/hold a US flag in the distress position ... camera in other hand ...

I have seen people go nuts with a simple distress US flag .... it is amazing the reactions you get.

[Tom Sawyer]

They'll citation you for not having a burn permit...

Double CD

[Sam A. Robrin]

Does boiling their blood help open a dialogue?

I'm probably the only person on Earth to have come to libertarianism through Steve Ditko's comic books, but when I first read Avenging World, it made me so angry, I threw it across the room.  The ideas in it wouldn't go away, though, and I continued thinking about them--mostly in an attempt to refute them.  I could finally no longer escape the fact that what I was really angry with was myself and the flawed belief system I'd bought into.
       So, to answer your question, yes.

[FTL_Ian]

We know by now the politicos are highly critical of CD

I've been criticized for this particular phrase, so I'll correct it:

We know by now MANY OF the politicos are highly critical of CD

[FTL_Ian]

that's sort of why i feel this may be ineffective...will you be verbally giving a statement before/during the act? i think that may help people understand a little better.

I thought we've covered this >.>

Not only will we have the local press and Ian, but we'll also have pamphlets and flyers that we'll be handing out. If someone gets me a bull horn, I'll say a few words.

I hope you'll make a statement even without a bullhorn.  The park is small and quiet, and I've heard you project your voice pretty effectively...

I think Ryder Report will also be covering the event.

[FTL_Ian]

I agree that there needs to be written material to go along with it, so people understand what you are saying. I am thinking a weekly flag burning (beginning on election day) until such time as the US is not engaging in any provocative activities around the world.

Weekly could get pretty expensive.  Monthly or quarterly would be plenty often to get people to be aware that it's done consistently.

[FTL_Ian]

It is partially meant to bring about discussion ... it is already doing that .... pretty powerful eh

Yep.  An issue that divides the voluntaryists must be a potent issue!   

I bet this story will get picked up by the AP.  Will it blow big, or be mostly ignored?

[Friday]

.

How, exactly, are we supposed to confront the idea of nationalism without stepping on any toes?  Maybe we should just ignore nationalism and hope it goes away? 

That's an interesting question.

I'm opposed to burning the US flag myself (opposed meaning I wouldn't do it and don't find it the most productive task I could partake in) but that doesn't mean that I conclude such an act would be totally unproductive.

The funny thing about nationalists getting mad about people burning the flag is that, to them, the flag represents freedom. It's a faith for them. And faith, being belief without factual basis, is the most unshakable basis of belief. Incorrect logic can be disproven with correct logic. Faith cannot.

Burning the flag becomes burning what they think that they believe in. It's a shock that may often just make them angry, and more grounded in their faith. Passive suggestion is one of the best ways to win an 'argument' because the opponent has no reason to feel his view has been threatened, and has no reason not to view one's points logically and consider them. Maybe shocking events like flag burnings are needed just to draw the issue (nationalism) into question, but in changing minds, it will come down to the repetitive assertion of liberty, simply defining it for nationalists without being condescending or shocking them, so they may understand that the flag is not freedom.

[Friday]

unfortunately, filtered through nationalist ears, this will translate "i'll stop being a terrorist when you stop loving your pathetic country, infidel!"

So suggest to me a tactful way to tell a nationalist that nationalism is evil and at the root of problem?

You do this all the time, Dale, with your comic.

[John]

I would maybe display/hold a US flag in the distress position ... camera in other hand ...

I have seen people go nuts with a simple distress US flag .... it is amazing the reactions you get.

Sure is. I recall protesting the feds in Concord with my US flag upside down on a pole when some really big redneck wannabe dude stopped in his pickup truck at the red light. He spotted me with my flag, and he turned about as mad as a hornet.
He started hollering at me, "You better fly that flag the way it's supposted to be flow [I was sure he'd call me boy but didn't] mother fucker!" He got the same responce anyone would get from me. I smiled and waved to him.

As an aside, here's the funny part: When the light turned green and he began to drive away, I saw that the entire back window of this truck displayed the Confederate flag. "Wow," I said out load to myself, "Now there's a boy who is really confused about the meaning of flags." I still laugh every time I recall this incident.

[AnarchoJesse]

that's sort of why i feel this may be ineffective...will you be verbally giving a statement before/during the act? i think that may help people understand a little better.

I thought we've covered this >.>

Not only will we have the local press and Ian, but we'll also have pamphlets and flyers that we'll be handing out. If someone gets me a bull horn, I'll say a few words.

I hope you'll make a statement even without a bullhorn.  The park is small and quiet, and I've heard you project your voice pretty effectively...

I think Ryder Report will also be covering the event.

Yeah, I can carry my voice

I'll be saying something bull horn or not. I was just thinking of how difficult it might be to carry my voice over the shouts of the nationalists.