Flag Burning 11/03

[dalebert]

Does boiling their blood help open a dialogue?

Yes, I think it does actually. And if we manage to remain calm while explaining our positions while they're shouting angrily and reacting emotionally, in time that boiling blood can lead to the next important step, also unpleasant but unfortunately unavoidable-- cognitive dissonance.

[AnarchoJesse]

One of the ways that really boils people's blood is to say this:

"Without resorting to an appeal to nationalism, please explain to me the difference between a Nazi soldier and a US Marine."

Does boiling their blood help open a dialogue?

Sure does. Yesterday, I stood out in Central Square with a sign that said "Voting is glorified gang-rape". Naturally, some people were VERY upset- but it also got dialogue going.

[Coconut]

I think Ryder Report will also be covering the event.

Well, "Ryder Report" is not an individual or organization and can't cover events. It's the name of a product produced by myself under the name of my company 

Semantics aside, I probably won't be able to stay away because of the possible action that will happen, though I still say that aggression against an obscure symbol like the flag will just make freedom-lovers look like wackos. I would doubt anyone would watch it and rub their chin in some pensive way thinking "I wonder why that man is doing that." Converts are not won in sudden, shocking ways. It takes time, as probably most people on this forum know if they think back to where they came from. Attacking something someone holds as valuable does not rip it away from them, it just causes them to hold it tighter.

I used to blindly advocate nationalistic things. I didn't have to feel aggresssed against to change my mind over time. Well, not too badly at least.

[John]

One suggestion, Jesse, is to have handouts of your full statement available to the press (and public).
The press love it when you make their jobs easier for them, and they can reward you by quoting you more directly.  

Also, keeping the public statement very short makes it harder for anyone to take part(s) of it out of context.

[Caleb]

Every time this topic comes up I never cease to be surprised at the squeamishness of some people who say that they love liberty. It really is amazing. They kill MILLIONS of people. MILLIONS. They drop bombs on populated areas killing people indiscriminately. How many children have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan alone?   The US is about mass murder.

But the second someone tries to call attention to that by doing something as inoffensive as burning a piece of fricking CLOTH ... even so-called "liberty lovers" get their panties all bunched up about it.  We have more sympathy for a patch of died cotton than we do for murdered human beings.

Is burning a flag ugly?  Maybe. But it's a whole hell of a lot less ugly than murdering millions of people. Because that is what the flag means to me. When I see it displayed, THAT is the message that I see:  "I'm proud of my country being a bad-ass, fuck the rest of the world. Fuck our victims. We rule. These colors don't run."

They may not run. But they do burn.

[FTL_Ian]

I think Ryder Report will also be covering the event.

Well, "Ryder Report" is not an individual or organization and can't cover events. It's the name of a product produced by myself under the name of my company 

Semantics aside, I probably won't be able to stay away because of the possible action that will happen, though I still say that aggression against an obscure symbol like the flag will just make freedom-lovers look like wackos. I would doubt anyone would watch it and rub their chin in some pensive way thinking "I wonder why that man is doing that." Converts are not won in sudden, shocking ways. It takes time, as probably most people on this forum know if they think back to where they came from. Attacking something someone holds as valuable does not rip it away from them, it just causes them to hold it tighter.

I used to blindly advocate nationalistic things. I didn't have to feel aggresssed against to change my mind over time. Well, not too badly at least.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't think anyone believes this will convert someone.  If it creates cognitive dissonance and discussion in some, it is worthwhile.  Virtually anything we do will piss *somebody* off - it's the nature of activism and taking a firm position. 

I agree with much of the sentiment expressed earlier.  They have parades and such to push their nationalism, so burning their symbols seems to be an appropriate "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" sort of response.

[Giggan]

Good points by everyone. AnarchoJesse, I do appreciate that you are doing something to spread liberty.

I was thinking back on security for this, and while open carry would be a good deterrant of potential attackers, obviously you don't want to have to shoot someone who attacks calling your bluff that you wouldn't shoot them, or in their rage simply doesn't noticed armed people around.

Somebody may want to have a taser in the crew. Hopefully, the event will go peacefully, but if there are any disturbances, tasing the agressor would probably be the safest way to dissolve a fight. Getting in between people throwing shots can be very dangerous, even if there is only one agressor.

[Jared]

jessie, i have a question...and btw, i am so intrigued that i may actually have to make it out to this if i can. anyway, my question is - do you  want to be protected? i mean, if a bunch of rednecks try to attack you, would you want us to help physically defend you?

[Jim Johnson]

I didn't read this whole thread... my apologies.

I suggest that there be a very serous and solemn ceremony before "sanctifying" the flag.

[AnarchoJesse]

I didn't read this whole thread... my apologies.

I suggest that there be a very serous and solemn ceremony before "sanctifying" the flag.

This isn't sanctification. This is desecration. There will be no "ceremony" about this.

[Pat K]

Yeah there was nothing better according to folks
like Gandhi and Martin Luther King than a good
old flag burning to get your point across.

[AnarchoJesse]

jessie, i have a question...and btw, i am so intrigued that i may actually have to make it out to this if i can. anyway, my question is - do you  want to be protected? i mean, if a bunch of rednecks try to attack you, would you want us to help physically defend you?

Do I want to have my teeth knocked out by nationalists? No. I will try my best to avoid confrontation of the physical type on my end- but if a thug or two rushes me, I'd appreciate help. I don't expect ANYONE to actually help if it becomes physical- but I would appreciate it to an extreme degree if it comes to that. I'm not asking people to bust skulls, or try and knock their teeth out, but if they do become physical, at least pull them off me.

[AnarchoJesse]

Yeah there was nothing better according to folks
like Gandhi and Martin Luther King than a good
old flag burning to get your point across.

Gandhi and MLK Jr. weren't opposed to the State- I'm sure if they were, they would have done the same.

[Pat K]

Yeah there was nothing better according to folks
like Gandhi and Martin Luther King than a good
old flag burning to get your point across.

Gandhi and MLK Jr. weren't opposed to the State- I'm sure if they were, they would have done the same.

Yeah  they always would have advocated self righteous angry
displays of temper tantrums as effective means of change.

[AnarchoJesse]

Yeah there was nothing better according to folks
like Gandhi and Martin Luther King than a good
old flag burning to get your point across.

Gandhi and MLK Jr. weren't opposed to the State- I'm sure if they were, they would have done the same.

Yeah  they always would have advocated self righteous angry
displays of temper tantrums as effective means of change.

Don't try and preach morals to me- I'm not the one who advocates softening the blow when dealing with the feelings of people who are otherwise complacent and complicit with a system that claims a "right" to plunder and murder at whim. And again, I ask- if not burning a flag would bring freedom faster, why isn't it here already? Have you ever burnt a flag? I'm guessing not, but it can only make me wonder- are you any freer? What about the vast majority that haven't burnt flags? Are they freer?

If you can think of a good reason for me to not burn a flag without appealing to emotion, I'll consider your point.