Flag Burning 11/03

[Giggan]

My question, other than pissing people off, is, what is to be gained from this?  What positive end will result?  I agree that it is non-violent, and I am disgusted by nationalism/my country right or wrong, but what is to be gained?. 

I was thinking the same thing...not that there's nothing to be gained but whether this is the most effective thing to do.

At best, it starts dialogues between people as to whether freedom means the freedom to burn a cloth that has a symbolic value. In high school, I remember watching videos on flag burners (all socialists) in what passed for a history class, and thinking 'wow, those greasy commies wanna force me to pay for their problems and also burn 'my' flag/representation of freedom, while they rally to take away my freedom' (economic freedom). I was against the idea of flag burning (I guess I supported it being a victimless crime back then, we didn't talk about enforcement either way) because I saw it as an act only totalitarians would want to take part in.

If it is expressed that a non-totalitarian is burning a flag, that will be as revealing as learning that not everyone at rallies to end the drug war is a user. I just question whether that point will be realized by all who see the headline that someone burnt a flag in Keene.

Their first reaction will be "He must hate freedom!"

Also: I don't know where exactly the central square is, but if it's visible from the road, something to consider is cops will consider it disorderly conduct to do anything which may interfere with a driver's attention. Not saying I agree, but it's something to be aware of. Of course, a flag may not take so long to go up in flames as to give them time to tell you to stop causing a distraction to driver's.

[AnarchoJesse]

My question, other than pissing people off, is, what is to be gained from this?  What positive end will result?  I agree that it is non-violent, and I am disgusted by nationalism/my country right or wrong, but what is to be gained?. 

I was thinking the same thing...not that there's nothing to be gained but whether this is the most effective thing to do.

At best, it starts dialogues between people as to whether freedom means the freedom to burn a cloth that has a symbolic value. In high school, I remember watching videos on flag burners (all socialists) in what passed for a history class, and thinking 'wow, those greasy commies wanna force me to pay for their problems and also burn 'my' flag/representation of freedom, while they rally to take away my freedom' (economic freedom). I was against the idea of flag burning (I guess I supported it being a victimless crime back then, we didn't talk about enforcement either way) because I saw it as an act only totalitarians would want to take part in.

If it is expressed that a non-totalitarian is burning a flag, that will be as revealing as learning that not everyone at rallies to end the drug war is a user. I just question whether that point will be realized by all who see the headline that someone burnt a flag in Keene.

Their first reaction will be "He must hate freedom!"

Also: I don't know where exactly the central square is, but if it's visible from the road, something to consider is cops will consider it disorderly conduct to do anything which may interfere with a driver's attention. Not saying I agree, but it's something to be aware of. Of course, a flag may not take so long to go up in flames as to give them time to tell you to stop causing a distraction to driver's.

1. If people ought to be so concerned for how others will interpret an action, why do none seemed to be concerned that them flying a flag is an endorsement of tyranny and oppression? Do I not have the same right to be angry and refuse their ideas, and take an action that shows such? This is precisely why I'm doing this- Political activity offends me; flags symbolic of violence, rape, and theft offend me (and should any moral being); my act is one of expressing my dissatisfaction with these institutionalized concepts- because, like it or not, they are inherent to the contemporary institutions. You people taking this approach may as well say "you shouldn't call taxation theft!" or "you shouldn't call government coercive!".

2. Part of the flag burning is that it will be multiple CD- gathering without a permit, disorderly conduct, burning without a permit, etc. This isn't simply a flag burning.

[Jared]

My question, other than pissing people off, is, what is to be gained from this?  What positive end will result?  I agree that it is non-violent, and I am disgusted by nationalism/my country right or wrong, but what is to be gained?. 

I was thinking the same thing...not that there's nothing to be gained but whether this is the most effective thing to do.

At best, it starts dialogues between people as to whether freedom means the freedom to burn a cloth that has a symbolic value. In high school, I remember watching videos on flag burners (all socialists) in what passed for a history class, and thinking 'wow, those greasy commies wanna force me to pay for the

ir problems and also burn 'my' flag/representation of freedom, while they rally to take away my freedom' (economic freedom). I was against the idea of flag burning (I guess I supported it being a victimless crime back then, we didn't talk about enforcement either way) because I saw it as an act only totalitarians would want to take part in.

If it is expressed that a non-totalitarian is burning a flag, that will be as revealing as learning that not everyone at rallies to end the drug war is a user. I just question whether that point will be realized by all who see the headline that someone burnt a flag in Keene.

Their first reaction will be "He must hate freedom!"

Also: I don't know where exactly the central square is, but if it's visible from the road, something to consider is cops will consider it disorderly conduct to do anything which may interfere with a driver's attention. Not saying I agree, but it's something to be aware of. Of course, a flag may not take so long to go up in flames as to give them time to tell you to stop causing a distraction to driver's.

1. If people ought to be so concerned for how others will interpret an action, why do none seemed to be concerned that them flying a flag is an endorsement of tyranny and oppression? Do I not have the same right to be angry and refuse their ideas, and take an action that shows such? This is precisely why I'm doing this- Political activity offends me; flags symbolic of violence, rape, and theft offend me (and should any moral being); my act is one of expressing my dissatisfaction with these institutionalized concepts- because, like it or not, they are inherent to the contemporary institutions. You people taking this approach may as well say "you shouldn't call taxation theft!" or "you shouldn't call government coercive!".

2. Part of the flag burning is that it will be multiple CD- gathering without a permit, disorderly conduct, burning without a permit, etc. This isn't simply a flag burning.

i don't see any problem in have a us flag waving at one's house. it doesn't necessarily mean that one supports the government.

[FTL_Ian]

Giggan, if you keep waiting for the perfect civil disobedience, it will never happen.

This is always the complaint about CD/noncooperation:  

"Couldn't you have picked a better issue than an IRS protest / drivers registration / couch in the yard / flag burn?"

Jesse has decided to burn a flag.  Actually, three flags - which is already a better protest than just burning the US flag.  He should be commended for having the courage to engage in such a protest, and for DOING SOMETHING.  Sure, it may not be ideal, but at least he's doing something.

Those reading, please don't take this the wrong way - I'm not suggesting you're doing nothing, just that those taking peaceful action should be applauded for their efforts instead of having potshots taken at them.  (I'm referring to the nasty PMs he's gotten, not you, Giggan.)

We know by now the politicos are highly critical of CD, and their negative responses should be expected and rejected.  Onward and upward!

Jesse should be congratulated.  I'm too chicken to engage in this protest, but I support the idea 100%.  Shame this doesn't happen more often.  Maybe then people wouldn't get so offended.

[FTL_Ian]

The flag is the symbol of the state.  Period.  You can attach whatever warm and fuzzy feelings you'd like to it, but in the end, that's all it is.  It's a symbol of centralized control and power.

[AnarchoJesse]

i don't see any problem in have a us flag waving at one's house. it doesn't necessarily mean that one supports the government.

The point here is that if we're simply to judge the "worth" of an act of civil disobedience by who it might offend -which we have already established is a matter of interpretation-, why do none care about MY interpretation, and why shouldn't I be permitted to voice it?

[Jared]

This is always the complaint about CD/noncooperation: 

"Couldn't you have picked a better issue than an IRS protest / drivers registration / couch in the yard / flag burn?"

that's a very good point. it seems like it will NEVER be the "right" kind of protest/cd to most people.

btw, i'm not saying anything about warm and fuzzy feelings. all i'm saying, is that the american flag can just as easily represent a love for one's specific plot of land (and an appreciation for the american revolution) without involving the government...at least that's the way i see it. i guess this is one of those arguments that could potentially result in a ten page thread, so hopefully it doesn't go there .

[Sam A. Robrin]

Burning the flag becomes burning what they think that they believe in. 

I really have no particular sympathy for anyone beyond the age of about 6 who can't tell the difference between a symbol and that which it purportedly symbolizes.  Maybe a flag-burning will finally get them angry enough to start thinking for once--something had better, because until they do, they're a drag on my rights, and I'm sick of it.

[AnarchoJesse]

This is always the complaint about CD/noncooperation: 

"Couldn't you have picked a better issue than an IRS protest / drivers registration / couch in the yard / flag burn?"

that's a very good point. it seems like it will NEVER be the "right" kind of protest/cd to most people.

btw, i'm not saying anything about warm and fuzzy feelings. all i'm saying, is that the american flag can just as easily represent a love for one's specific plot of land (and an appreciation for the american revolution) without involving the government...at least that's the way i see it. i guess this is one of those arguments that could potentially result in a ten page thread, so hopefully it doesn't go there .

See though, this becomes the crux of the situation- if the flag is wholly symbolic, the symbolism is dependent on the observer, how can we state one way or another that my act is wrong/could be misinterpreted/etc. when the very valuation is wholly dependent on a personal whim? I would actually consider the Gadsden Flag to be more in line with loving your plot of land and the Revolution- but again, this all becomes a matter of interpretation. We would essentially dead-lock in "why is your interpretation better than mine?" if we continued with this vein of thought.

[John]

... "my country right or wrong" ... 

David is quoting one part (which most all of the nationalists will know. (I know David is not one.)

What is generally not remembered any longer (by most people) is the rest of the sentence; "...when right to stand by her: when wrong to set her right again."

[Jared]

This is always the complaint about CD/noncooperation: 

"Couldn't you have picked a better issue than an IRS protest / drivers registration / couch in the yard / flag burn?"

that's a very good point. it seems like it will NEVER be the "right" kind of protest/cd to most people.

btw, i'm not saying anything about warm and fuzzy feelings. all i'm saying, is that the american flag can just as easily represent a love for one's specific plot of land (and an appreciation for the american revolution) without involving the government...at least that's the way i see it. i guess this is one of those arguments that could potentially result in a ten page thread, so hopefully it doesn't go there .

See though, this becomes the crux of the situation- if the flag is wholly symbolic, the symbolism is dependent on the observer, how can we state one way or another that my act is wrong/could be misinterpreted/etc. when the very valuation is wholly dependent on a personal whim? I would actually consider the Gadsden Flag to be more in line with loving your plot of land and the Revolution- but again, this all becomes a matter of interpretation. We would essentially dead-lock in "why is your interpretation better than mine?" if we continued with this vein of thought.

that's sort of why i feel this may be ineffective...will you be verbally giving a statement before/during the act? i think that may help people understand a little better.

[Russell Kanning]

it is funny how many people will try to talk you out of this or instruct you in private messages

[Russell Kanning]

... but burning the flag will not be taken in a positive manner.

it will by me

[AnarchoJesse]

that's sort of why i feel this may be ineffective...will you be verbally giving a statement before/during the act? i think that may help people understand a little better.

I thought we've covered this >.>

Not only will we have the local press and Ian, but we'll also have pamphlets and flyers that we'll be handing out. If someone gets me a bull horn, I'll say a few words.

[Russell Kanning]

And that, right there, sums up the goal. For every election that is held, I will burn a flag. For every parade praising murderers and institutionalized thugs, I will burn a flag. If these people can share their views so overtly, I can do the same. It would be a two-faced act to suggest dismantling the State but stop short of burning a piece of cloth that represents it because "the wrong message might be sent across".

sounds good to me ... when there are nationalist or patriotic public displays, you can display your disgust of the rotten US government system