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"Let them march all they want, as long as they pay their taxes."  --Alexander Haig

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Author Topic: Techno-agorism  (Read 2337 times)

dalebert

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Re: Techno-agorism
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2008, 01:36 AM NHFT »

Like I said, you can never have enough. 1 Million isn't enough, I need 10 Million. 10 Million's not enough, I need to get 20.... You can always make another buck; you can never have enough money.

This is the kind of attitude they instill, part of the indoctrination they use to enslave us. They teach us that success is measured by wealth rather than by whatever it may be that each of us as individuals find fulfilling in our lives. It can be overcome, but you're fighting years of indoctrination by the elites that want us busting our asses to get richer, even while they're siphoning off most of our efforts. It's slavery, only brilliantly and artfully executed. Overcoming this indoctrination is one of the most important steps to achieving more freedom on a personal level.

Determine your financial goals, but weigh them against the sacrifices you'd have to make to get that money. Think about what it would take for you to feel financially secure, and "as much money as I can get" is not an acceptable answer. For instance, I don't want a wage slave position (paid to show up 40 hours a week) where most of my money immediately ends up in the hands of the thugs which they use for fattening their wallets and committing violence, even though that's the most expedient way for me to make lots of money quickly. I'd much rather live my life more in tune with my tastes and learn to save better and live more frugally. My free time is more valuable to me now. Your time is something you can never get back. Living frugally for a while out of necessity taught me how much happiness doesn't come from money. It's helped me see what I truly value and how much money and/or assets I need for that lifestyle, and it's a LOT less than I used to think.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 01:46 AM NHFT by dalebert »
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memenode

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Re: Techno-agorism
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2008, 12:36 PM NHFT »

I agree Dalebert. To clarify, this is why I speak of generating value when I speak of wealth, because value can be anything and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with material posessions. Someone can be considered a very wealthy person living in a very basic rented house, having a basic pay and merely making ends meet, but living with someone he loves and earning this money doing something he loves to do. This is very conservative from the "get lots of money" perspective, yet that guy is wealthy as far as he is concerned.

However, I believe that rare are the people who don't see material wealth as a big part of what they consider being wealthy in general, because most people today in the world are either making ends meet, spending all their time working for a wage, rarely ever having time to actually be themselves and be creative. Government makes things worse by indoctrinating people into such ideas as that having a lot of wealth is some sort of a sin (and tax you proportionately), as if having a wage job is the most moral way one can live! And then it dares to steal a portion of that wage! This is partly why I am almost hostile to suggestions against wealth generation. To me, opposition to persoal wealth generation (however you define it for yourself) is socialist government talk, not free market talk!

Life, Liberty and Property = Pursuit of happiness. What makes you happy? What do you need to accomplish to be happy? For me, and I don't think this should be such surprise, it involves a material wealth generation phase. My ambitions require material investment so I need to have something to invest. It's as simple as that.

That said, voluntaryism is about being ANYTHING you want to be so long as you don't coerce. So at the end of the day your life is up to you and mine is up to me. The only commonality between all voluntaryists is the desire to eradicate the urge to coerce and institutions of coercion. And yes, we don't have to agree on the method. My "become a millionaire and use technology in defense against government" method doesn't have to be shared by everyone, and even I have plenty of time to keep learning and adjusting my strategies..

Thanks
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dalebert

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Re: Techno-agorism
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2008, 02:39 PM NHFT »

If you truly want to make a lot of money, I think that's perfectly fine. You're not harming anyone by getting rich. In fact, you almost can't avoid helping a lot of other people achieve their goals along the way assuming you do it in a free market fashion. So don't take my message the wrong way. I'm all for it. Do be aware that it's hard to do in the environment they've shaped with statism, and particularly hard without it feeding the machine more than it's feeding you. That's why I say think twice if the reason you're getting rich is to fight the machine. That's all.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Techno-agorism
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2008, 07:21 PM NHFT »

I used your way Dale. I have to say it worked well for me, but not sure if it is for everyone.
I continually 'invested' in reducing my expenses, which lead to further savings and finally resulting in looking for more esoteric means to avoid 'feeding the beast' without getting mugged.

Its what lead to me seriously investigating the system to see what loopholes were left unattended.
Its an ongoing process.
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memenode

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Re: Techno-agorism
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2008, 08:30 PM NHFT »

I have to clarify my goal is not to make a lot of money regardless of the method, so long as I don't coerce. I DO live rather frugally right now and I do not nor want a wage job either. And the way I want to do it is also limited to the method which involves doing what I love and what I am best at doing, rather than "anything goes".

That said, why not break this whole thing down to elementary components. The concern that you guys are bringing up is that in the process of achieving wealth I may end up feeding the state and playing their game.

How EXACTLY does that happen?

The only ways I see it happening are the following:

  • Registering your business, thus paying the fees associated with registration and maintenance. This is where they earn the smallest amount.
  • Paying taxes associated with all of your business activities.
  • Paying other taxes - Value Added Tax (VAT) embedded in the price of all products bought (including food), inflation (which is essentially a tax), property taxes (if any) etc.
  • Indirect taxes such as the taxes paid by the bank you are using to cash your checks or withdraw money through..
  • Anything else?

So if you DO NOT do any of the above isn't it true then that you are NOT feeding the state? I know you can't avoid some of these things such as VAT and inflation, but you can significantly lower the feeding by not doing what you can avoid (regardless of the threat of force).

Of course, if you do not do these things there is a threat of forceful taking of your money or your person (putting you in jail). But if that happens does that really result in an inevitable feeding of the state? I think not, because you still have a choice on which this depends on:

1. Even when they seek your money, don't give it to them.. if they put you in jail, endure or escape - make their pursuit of you be actually more expensive than not to pursue you. But either way, they're not getting the money unless they just bust through your doors and take your private posessions. Even then, the doors through which they could bust might be into a place where you don't hold that many posessions anyway! The really valuable stuff is elsewhere and in multiple places and to find and get to those places they'd have to incure even greater costs! In short, even when they go and get you, they get virtually NOTHING.

2. Submit and pay up.

What you seem to be advocating, and correct me if I'm wrong, is to actually comply and do it "by the book", but seek loopholes in their laws to explot to legally avoid taxes.

If you are advocating this strategy I think you're actually advocating more of the "feeding of the system" than I am, EVEN if you're merely living frugally and earning modestly. Of course, it's your choice, but I just wanted to clarify the strategy I am considering.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 08:33 PM NHFT by gu3st »
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Techno-agorism
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2008, 09:49 PM NHFT »

Its not a concern for me.
Just I understand where each of you is coming from.
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dalebert

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Re: Techno-agorism
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2008, 10:01 PM NHFT »

What you seem to be advocating, and correct me if I'm wrong, is to actually comply and do it "by the book", but seek loopholes in their laws to explot to legally avoid taxes.

You're wrong. I'm for whatever works. I just don't think you're very likely to get rich with an under-the-table operation. Discretion tends to keep you small and if you're not discrete, they're just going to take your money by force.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Techno-agorism
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2008, 10:12 PM NHFT »

More like everyday your going to get mugged. The mugger is going to take a percentage of what you have in your pockets... so why put more in your pockets then you need?
(Would that be more accurate Dale?)

And from me... regardless of the amount of money you have in your pocket... try to avoid getting mugged.
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memenode

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Re: Techno-agorism
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2008, 11:18 PM NHFT »

Quote from: dalebert
You're wrong. I'm for whatever works.

Alright.

Quote from: dalebert
I just don't think you're very likely to get rich with an under-the-table operation.

Others have done it, and with far less "noble" intentions.

Quote from: dalebert
Discretion tends to keep you small and if you're not discrete, they're just going to take your money by force.

Well, how is that a different result than what Russel Kanning and Lauren Canario are facing when not complying themselves?

Should I limit my potential out of fear of the government, even when pursuing my maximum potential regardless of their threats could actually undermine the government?

Then there is the issue of strategy and urgency. Edward Griffin said something quite interesting that stuck with me, which is basically that the cause of apathy is the lack of knowledge of solutions. People are apathetic because they believe they are powerless and that there are NO solutions. Unfortunately, Edward Griffin's proposed solution is the use of political power, something I as a voluntaryist cannot agree with. So what is MY solution?

If I can't use the politics what can I use? The market of course, the only thing that's left. So how do I use the market? By doing business. How do I use the market most efficiently? By doing business that generates greater amount of wealth and therefore greater amount of potential market power.

Unlike political action, however, the risks in doing that are larger, because it is "outside the system". However, again, how is that any different from what civil disobedience practitioners on this very forum are already doing?

And if we don't do that, what else are we supposed to do? Is media action and "spreading the idea" really enough in a world in which international totalitarianism is already a reality!?

« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 11:22 PM NHFT by gu3st »
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memenode

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Re: Techno-agorism
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2008, 11:20 PM NHFT »

Quote from: John Edward Mercier
so why put more in your pockets then you need?

Put simply, because of the things you can do for liberty with it if you don't get mugged.
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dalebert

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Re: Techno-agorism
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2008, 01:55 AM NHFT »

Go for it. We all have to decide for ourselves what risk level we're comfortable with in the pursuit of our goals.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Techno-agorism
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2008, 11:54 PM NHFT »

Quote from: John Edward Mercier
so why put more in your pockets then you need?

Put simply, because of the things you can do for liberty with it if you don't get mugged.
I was referencing Dale's post to get a better understanding of his postion.
Mine was 'avoid getting mugged.'

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dalebert

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Re: Techno-agorism
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2008, 12:04 AM NHFT »

More like everyday your going to get mugged. The mugger is going to take a percentage of what you have in your pockets... so why put more in your pockets then you need?
(Would that be more accurate Dale?)

And from me... regardless of the amount of money you have in your pocket... try to avoid getting mugged.

Sorry, I should have answered. Yes, what I'm saying is that there are many strategies and that is one of them. Hiding your income, avoiding the muggers, etc. are other strategies. It all comes down to what you're comfortable with. I'm pretty comfortable with the notion of just not making very much so I won't pay much in taxes. Some won't be comfortable with that and will want more money but are more comfortable with risk. It's a personal decision. I like the idea of owning things that provide me with what I need to get by and even the potential to make money if I need it, but owning things doesn't raise my income taxes, and that's the big one to me because it goes to Feds and they're the worst.
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memenode

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Re: Techno-agorism
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2008, 10:52 AM NHFT »

I agree. To each his own.

I believe we can be Neo's within the Matrix though. We can bend their "reality" because we are mentally outside of it, thus posessing an "inside-angle" that they don't.

I am firmly beginning to believe that you can be or do anything you want, regardless of terrocrats. The key to freedom is building it yourself, not asking it of someone else. The key to changing the world is to change yourself, not try to change others. The biggest power terrocrats have is psychological, not the one coming from the barrel of the gun. They use words so much more than bullets. Why wouldn't they? Ideas are more powerful than bullets and ideas are bullet proof too! And words make people submit willingly, rather than by force, and force is still more expensive than words. Not to mention that willing submission is largely what gives them their "power" to begin with.

But if you no longer succumb to this manipulation they're either forced to use guns or give up, because there are weaker victims to prey on. But truthfully, the free people, the "Neo's" of our time are unlikely to even be known to the terrocrats before they could even begin to do anything about them. Thus terrocrats end up being pitifully inefficient, in the dark and even powerless.

Which shouldn't, ultimately, once the revolution built by individual freedom builders drowns them in their powerlessness, surprise them. Their "power" is based on weakness of their own and others whom they manipulate. Some power! Power based on weakness! Haha! You think that'll last forever? ;)

"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" would ring more true if you replaced "power" with "weakness": "Weakness corrupts and absolute weakness corrupts absolutely". Weak people prey on others. Powerful people build themselves.

And yes, I've been reading buildfreedom dot com.

So... to each his own.. power. :)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 10:54 AM NHFT by gu3st »
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Techno-agorism
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2008, 10:56 AM NHFT »

I'm watching the US Congress fool themselves right now.
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