The Devil's Advocate

[Friday]

In my job as an editor, I read over fifty books a year, most of them in genres I wouldn't typically pay attention to.  One trend that's remained consistent for years is that bad cops, in both fiction and non-fiction, never receive any satisfactory comeuppance. 

Training Day?  "Oh no you didn'!" 



[note: this clip is very spoilerific if you haven't seen the movie "Training Day", which is excellent]

[Pat K]

" I am the Police!! You just live here!!"

That about sums it up.

[MaineShark]

The movie was kind of corny and your right you definitely could say he was in on diabolical stuff.  I just like Al Pacino, this wasn't one of his better movies in my opinion.

Wha???  I think it's a really good movie.  I like it a lot.  It's possibly the only movie I've ever seen Keanu Reeves in where I forget he's Keanu and believe him as the character.  Charlize Theron is also excellent.  Pacino is, well, Pacino.

I just find the whole "God-and-the-Devil" mythology to be too weak to sustain most stories.

God doesn't make any appearances, if that's any help.  Mostly the devil and a bunch of lawyers.

Joe

[dalebert]

Mostly the devil and a bunch of lawyers.

Two great things that go great together! ...oh, wait.

[MaineShark]

Mostly the devil and a bunch of lawyers.

Two great things that go great together! ...oh, wait.

If I were the devil, I wouldn't have anything to do with lawyers...  I mean, you gotta have some standards...

Joe

[dalebert]

Actually, the Devil doesn't seem so bad. He strikes me as a pro-freedom anarchist type. He encouraged Adam and Eve to seek knowledge and become self-suficient adults. He rejects the AMOG (Authoritarian Model of God). I think he gets a bad rap. Might be one of those guys you have to meet for yourself and have a beer with before you pass judgment.

[Giggan]

Actually, the Devil doesn't seem so bad. He strikes me as a pro-freedom anarchist type. He encouraged Adam and Eve to seek knowledge and become self-suficient adults. He rejects the AMOG (Authoritarian Model of God). I think he gets a bad rap. Might be one of those guys you have to meet for yourself and have a beer with before you pass judgment.

Augustine I believe it was, proposed the idea that there is no such thing as evil, just the absense of good. There's a religious theory that in order to give people free will and not be perfect angel ideals, God gave them the ability to do wrong, and ability means nothing if never excercised, so the apple was supposed to be eaten. It wasn't bad, but just not good.

But yeah, since good means nothing without evil, destroying the concept of evil is to destroy the concept of good. The devil has to be pro-freedom because if you don't chose to be evil, nothing you do can be evil. God should be pro-freedom because if you don't choose good, the act is morally neutral. Neither is in a position to be much of an authoritarian.

[J’raxis 270145]

Actually, the Devil doesn't seem so bad. He strikes me as a pro-freedom anarchist type. He encouraged Adam and Eve to seek knowledge and become self-suficient adults. He rejects the AMOG (Authoritarian Model of God). I think he gets a bad rap. Might be one of those guys you have to meet for yourself and have a beer with before you pass judgment.

Pacino's speech in the end is pretty much spot on:—

"I'll tell you... let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man... instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do? I swear, for his own amusement... his own private, cosmic... gag reel... He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look, but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, but don't swallow. And while you're jumping from one foot to the next, what is He doing? He's laughing his sick, fucking ass off! He's a tightass! He's a sadist! He's an absentee landlord! Worship that? Never!"

" 'Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven,' is that it?"

"Why not? I'm here on the ground with my nose in it since the whole thing began! I've nurtured every sensation man has been inspired to have! I cared about what he wanted and I never judged him! Why? Because I never rejected him, in spite of all his imperfections! I'm a fan of man! I'm a humanist. Maybe the last humanist."

...

"In the Bible, you lose. We're destined to lose, Dad."

"Consider the source, Son!"

(source.)

I'm an atheist, but if I were to believe in the existence of this particular god, I'd be a maltheist.

[Caleb]

Actually, the Devil doesn't seem so bad. He strikes me as a pro-freedom anarchist type. He encouraged Adam and Eve to seek knowledge and become self-suficient adults. He rejects the AMOG (Authoritarian Model of God). I think he gets a bad rap. Might be one of those guys you have to meet for yourself and have a beer with before you pass judgment.

Not quite. The symbol of the Tree of Knowledge didn't end there. The Tree of Knowledge wasn't non-specific knowledge, it referred to a specific type of knowledge:  The Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil ... So the tree doesn't represent mankind taking on the world and beginning to explore it. The tree represents mankind rebelling against divine morality:  the acceptance of the norms of evil and the subjugation of good.

The Devil is a later archetype of this inner human impulse toward evil. He isn't mentioned in Genesis. So you are referring to The Serpent, which is an earlier archetype for this same impulse. The Devil has undergone transformation as an archetype, originally appearing as an angelic prosecutor in God's court and only later coming to symbolize the evil impulse within man.

[Pat K]

Actually, the Devil doesn't seem so bad. He strikes me as a pro-freedom anarchist type. He encouraged Adam and Eve to seek knowledge and become self-suficient adults. He rejects the AMOG (Authoritarian Model of God). I think he gets a bad rap. Might be one of those guys you have to meet for yourself and have a beer with before you pass judgment.

Not quite. The symbol of the Tree of Knowledge didn't end there. The Tree of Knowledge wasn't non-specific knowledge, it referred to a specific type of knowledge:  The Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil ... So the tree doesn't represent mankind taking on the world and beginning to explore it. The tree represents mankind rebelling against divine morality:  the acceptance of the norms of evil and the subjugation of good.

The Devil is a later archetype of this inner human impulse toward evil. He isn't mentioned in Genesis. So you are referring to The Serpent, which is an earlier archetype for this same impulse. The Devil has undergone transformation as an archetype, originally appearing as an angelic prosecutor in God's court and only later coming to symbolize the evil impulse within man.

Yeah and then, the Unicorn bit him in the ass; and then they went
and had Pizza; and then............

[David]

Actually, the Devil doesn't seem so bad. He strikes me as a pro-freedom anarchist type. He encouraged Adam and Eve to seek knowledge and become self-suficient adults. He rejects the AMOG (Authoritarian Model of God). I think he gets a bad rap. Might be one of those guys you have to meet for yourself and have a beer with before you pass judgment.

Augustine I believe it was, proposed the idea that there is no such thing as evil, just the absense of good. There's a religious theory that in order to give people free will and not be perfect angel ideals, God gave them the ability to do wrong, and ability means nothing if never excercised, so the apple was supposed to be eaten. It wasn't bad, but just not good.

But yeah, since good means nothing without evil, destroying the concept of evil is to destroy the concept of good. The devil has to be pro-freedom because if you don't chose to be evil, nothing you do can be evil. God should be pro-freedom because if you don't choose good, the act is morally neutral. Neither is in a position to be much of an authoritarian.

I was raised with that belief.  That there was an omnipotent God, who allows man to make mistakes, or errors.  You cannot be made in the likeness of God, without the free will to make mistakes that violate Gods will. 

[FTL_Ian]

I love that movie and have always loved Pacino's speech you quoted, Jeremy.

It's a stunning film; I highly recommend it.

I think I'll go add it to my Netflix list.

[dalebert]

... it referred to a specific type of knowledge:  The Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil

I'm aware of that but I always took it to be about free will and it seems the Devil is responsible for giving it to man. There is the notion that one can't have free will without choices (good and evil), or even that those are essentially one and the same. And it's hard not to associate having your own choices and being cast out of the garden with maturity. In the garden, God took care of them like children and they weren't responsible for their actions. When they were cast out, they had to work to support themselves and could now be judged for their actions. God was angry that his children had grown up and having to fend for themselves was presented like it was a punishment. The Devil in this story is a sort of teacher of one of the most important lessons we all have to learn.

[Vitruvian]

The Devil in this story is a sort of teacher of one of the most important lessons we all have to learn.

The name Lucifer comes from the Latin lucem ferre, which means "bringer of light."  He is the Abrahamic version of Prometheus.

[Bill St. Clair]

God doesn't make any appearances, if that's any help.  Mostly the devil and a bunch of lawyers.

Reminds me of a joke:

It's a little known fact that Heaven and Hell are actually right next to each other. There's a big stone wall that separates them. Well, one day, Satan, while fixing some damage to the wall, moves it over three feet onto heaven's property. When God finds out about it, he's angry:

God: Hey, Satan, what's the idea moving the wall onto My property?
Satan: What're you gonna do about it?
God: I'm gonna sue you. That's what I'm gonna do.
Satan: Yeah. Right. Where are you gonna find a lawyer?