Live Free or Die Festival Boycott *WITHDRAWN*

[dalebert]

I think that's the misunderstanding here: It's not an event to promote freedom, it's an event to promote free speech, including the allowance of speech that's not particularly pro-freedom itself.

Well, no. I think that's reaching. It's definitely a freedom event. It just so happens that freedom includes speech. However, it does not mean someone else has to provide an outlet for your speech. Ian doesn't have to let an anti-freedom person speak on his show.

I'd rather see something like this handled like Sununu's appearance at last year's Liberty Forum: Don't boycott the event, go there and protest the anti-freedom vendors.

Me too. I think this is a good analogy. I was one of those boycotters, and that was our sentiment. We weren't trying to rain on the whole party. I'll be speaking my mind to these people if they're there and I'll join a protest of them.

I'm just having a hard time dealing with the hypocrisy of punishing Jean, who hosts this huge pluralistic event which has this one element there, vs. supporting Ron Paul who HIMSELF is promoting this particularly harmful and anti-freedom stance. It just doesn't have the clarity of truth that I feel is needed to go viral with the freedom message. In simpler terms, it's just sounds kind of vindictive rather than principled. I mean, in a way you're sort of throwing in the towel with Ron Paul because you don't feel you can change his stance by ostracism, but you feel you have the clout to pressure Jean, who is small time right now, so you're going for it. No, it's not literally aggression, but it still seems to fall into this very distasteful area of might makes right which goes against reason and truth.

[Dave Ridley]

having been to this thing every year now i'm not seeing any downside to going again.  if there was a bigotry issue in the past, it seems to get less every year.  Tolerance of bigotry, in any case ,  and even if you assume they are practicing it...is a very different thing from bigotry itself.

[FTL_Ian]

I was quite disappointed when Ron Paul's campaign started running commercials spots about border enforcement.   

[FTL_Ian]

I'm just having a hard time dealing with the hypocrisy of punishing Jean, who hosts this huge pluralistic event which has this one element there, vs. supporting Ron Paul who HIMSELF is promoting this particularly harmful and anti-freedom stance. It just doesn't have the clarity of truth that I feel is needed to go viral with the freedom message. In simpler terms, it's just sounds kind of vindictive rather than principled. I mean, in a way you're sort of throwing in the towel with Ron Paul because you don't feel you can change his stance by ostracism, but you feel you have the clout to pressure Jean, who is small time right now, so you're going for it. No, it's not literally aggression, but it still seems to fall into this very distasteful area of might makes right which goes against reason and truth.

That's hardly might makes right.  When I complain to a store manager about bad service, that's not might, that's just voting with your business.  I am voting with my attendance and promotion of LFoD. 

I'm writing him back to see if I can clear up the miscommunication.

[William]

Ian and Dale, I also was not fond of the immigration issue in the campaign but would one be doing good for the freedom movement by boycotting or ostracizing Ron Paul? I still believe that his campaign (and thus him personally) has done more to promote freedom in my lifetime than pretty much anyone else. Mostly by way of education on taxes and the fed which lead people to look into more areas.

I guess I just feel that following this line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion would lead to a very fragmented situation which would hurt the cause more than help. Take religion as an example. There are over three thousand christian denominations. Every time there's a disagreement, there goes another fragment. In fact, I'm pretty sure that among them, there is absolutely nothing they all agree on. The FSP has already fragmented into the politicos and the nots, so what's next? The agrarians vs the technos? Maybe we should all get together, focus on our differences and ostracize each other? I prefer a big tent.

[FTL_Ian]

William, good points indeed.  However, the subgroups you mentioned are not openly advocating aggressing against peaceful travelers.  I have emailed Jean to ask if he would allow drug law enforcement groups to have tables at his event.  Hopefully this will allow him to see my point.  I get the impression Jean is quite friendly to marijuana legalization, so his answer (providing I haven't burned the bridge and he answers) will either reveal him as consistent or confused.  If he's consistent then it's a free speech event I'd rather not attend.  If he's confused, I'll withdraw the boycott and attend in hopes of persuading him.

[FTL_Ian]

I agree, Seth.  I think Jean should run the event how he wants.  I was just expressing my displeasure as a formerly satisfied customer.

[FTL_Ian]

I have emailed Jean to ask if he would allow drug law enforcement groups to have tables at his event.  

Have you found out what the first table was about before you moved onto drug enforcement tables?

All I know is what he claimed, that they were "immigration law enforcers".  Are you suggesting he is confused, and that's not in fact what they were?

[FTL_Ian]

Having built a radio show, I know you can appreciate the amount of work it takes to build something up and can also appreciate the fact that you can't please everyone.  Expecting the event to be tailored to you is counterproductive.  

I don't expect anything other than being listened to.  I believe he has done that.  I just wanted him to know how I felt.  It's sending a market signal, not an expectation.  I don't own Jean or want to control Jean.  If he chooses to continue to allow aggressors tables, I just want him to know I'll discontinue attending and promoting his event.

I could have said nothing and just not attended, but then he would not have gotten an explicit signal as to why.  Whether he does anything about it is his choice.  I expect nothing.   

[dalebert]

Ian and Dale, I also was not fond of the immigration issue in the campaign but would one be doing good for the freedom movement by boycotting or ostracizing Ron Paul? I still believe that his campaign (and thus him personally) has done more to promote freedom in my lifetime than pretty much anyone else. Mostly by way of education on taxes and the fed which lead people to look into more areas.

I wasn't really boycotting Ron Paul in the literal sense. What I was doing was pointing out fallacies in the notion of promoting liberty through political action and Ron Paul was just the relevant candidate for that discussion. I agree that he educating a lot of people on some important issues, but I don't feel like that will do anything for the liberty movement if they don't then make the next logical step of realizing that politics is a tool of an aggressive government for maintaining its illusions. Until they make that step, I feel like they barely treading water and are just likely to burn out and lose hope when their efforts prove to be fruitless.

The FSP has already fragmented into the politicos and the nots, so what's next? The agrarians vs the technos? Maybe we should all get together, focus on our differences and ostracize each other? I prefer a big tent.

The FSP "schism" was a good thing in general. It gave people options and allowed us to all continue working on the things we feel comfortable with and allowed us to work separately so that we weren't constantly creating friction. Political planning on the NHFree boards was disturbing to a lot of people here and it was moved to new boards. With more distinct groups, people can be involved in either or both, and those who want to distinguish themselves from crazy Keeniacs and what not can do so more easily since they're not all congregating and planning in one place. It also means there's not one head of the snake for enemies to chop off and end the liberty movement. In many ways, it preserved friendships and good will in the long run. Notice my self-proclaimed title of "Ambassador of the Schism".

That said, I do agree about a big tent. Though I have no faith in politics to promote freedom, I do see the politicos as allies with their hearts in the right place. I don't want to burn bridges with them. I have hopes for many of them to come around to my point of view later. As for LFoD, I was very much against Pokerface and would have avoided the event over their performance. Still, I don't feel like we should nitpick Jean over every table and disagreement over liberty issues. I'd rather go there and do my own outreach for voluntaryism and speak out specifically against those with whom I disagree, i.e. the immigration law enforcers, just as I protested Sununu but not the entire Liberty Forum. I say let's pick our battles with prudence.

[jaqeboy]

Having built a radio show, I know you can appreciate the amount of work it takes to build something up and can also appreciate the fact that you can't please everyone.  Expecting the event to be tailored to you is counterproductive.  

...I don't own Jean or want to control Jean...

...but you should get to know him - he's a great guy and as energetic and resourceful as they come. You'd be great allies. We should be about networking and building alliances to grow the movement, eh?

By the way, it might be important for Porcs to remember that you're new here and it would be really beneficial to get to know the natives like Mike (near native anyway - I think he was born in R.I., but I met him back in 77 or 78 when he was still in high school). If Porcs come to town and say "OK, you're all going to do everything my way from now on, or else (...I'll skewer you on my national radio show, ... on the forums, etc.)" do you expect to have a warm welcome and a happy working relationship in your new alliances? Suggest all ponder the question. I watched the town of Grafton rally to see what they could do to keep Free Staters out when an exuberant, but misguided and poorly communicating, prospective member suggested he'd bring prostitution and donkey sex shows to town. 300 people turned out to that town meeting - more than ever before at any town meeting! ponder, ponder...

[FTL_Ian]

Thank you for the suggestion, Jack.  I'm sure if I lived over in Jaffrey, I'd get to know Jean.  As it is, I have lots of people here to get to know.  Jean seems like a nice man who is trying too hard to make everyone happy.  It wouldn't matter to me (as it's apparently not a pro-liberty event and I have other things to do on a Saturday) if Jean doesn't "do it my way".  I was just informing him of how I felt about his decision.

you're new here...

Are you saying I should just keep my mouth shut because I'm "new"?  Does that mean my opinion is worth less than those who have been here longer?

As a customer who cares, I occasionally make a point of suggesting things to business owners that I think could help them, if something bothers me enough.  For example, I was in a head shop in Brattleboro recently.   While I was there, a man came in, purchased a pack of cigarettes, and went and stood outside the front door.  As I continued to browse, I overheard this man panhandling to passersby for money for a "bus ticket".  The woman running the store at the time was not close enough to the front door to notice his activity, so I decided to alert her, as if I were the owner of the store I would've appreciated someone letting me know about a panhandler outside.  For all I know, she likes having panhandlers outside of her front door. After all, I was a brand-new customer. Does that mean I should have kept my mouth shut because as a new customer my opinion doesn't matter as much?

Should I have not said anything to Jean about Pokerface because I'm too new?

If someone is doing something that bothers me enough, (like racism or advocating aggression against peaceful travelers) you're saying I should shut up about it and at the most silently withdraw my attendance, because I'm new?

Since Jean has lived here longer, he'll always have "senority", so should I always keep my mouth shut?  Or is there a certain number of years that removes the "new" label?

Sounds like argumentum ad antiquitatem to me. 

[John]

I was having a good time at the first one. Lots and lots of nice people.

Turns out there were also some not-so-nice people. But, most were (I think) people who might be reached by one mesage, or another.

Anyway after spending some time talking with some folks there who maybe seamed a bit, how shall I say - well, they talked a lot about 911 and were trying to get anyone (and everyone) to take their CDs - someone whom I trust asked me why I was had been hanging around with such racists. I hadn't picked that up in my conversation with them but, went right back to ask them about it because, I had allowed them to video tape me. Turns out they denied they were but then proceded to tell me all the silly/stupid things one might expect from racists once the topic is introdused. I told them that they do not have my permition to use any of the recordings of me for any purpose whatsoever.

I had already been a bit unhappy about one of the speakers who was advocating government control (ie theft) of land ...
And then, they had what I think was their main speaker - the anti-immigrant fear-mongering crap. I was very sad about the fact that so many people get sucked into the racist trap when the "soft racism" of "the illegals" is used as the bait.

So I have not gone back - - - BUT maybe I should, to help fight against the bad messages and be a voice for LIBERTY. Maybe.

[FTL_Ian]

John, glad to know I'm not the only one with concerns about LFoD. Though, I do not wish to fight.  Better to just create our own event(s).   

Hmm... I wonder if John counts as "new" under Jack's definition, since he used to live in Mass.  From how far away must one originate in order to be considered "new" when moving to a different plot of land?  Outside Jaffrey?  The Monadnock region?  New Hampshire?  New England?  The North East?  North America?  This hemisphere? 

[AntonLee]

the citizens of grafton have another thing coming.  The Amazing Anton Lee Donkey Sex Show Extravaganza!  

cue Yakety Sax!

I'd have to say personally, that most citizens from MA are further away from Liberty than any person on the face of Planet Earth.