Live Free or Die Festival Boycott *WITHDRAWN*

[FTL_Ian]

Here's a series of emails between LFoD organizer Jean Coteau and I from earlier today.  I will post them in order they were received and sent.  His emails are quoted, my replies are in regular text.  I could tell earlier this year by his emails' tone that he really didn't want to cancel the racist band Pokerface, but he did anyway when faced with ostracism, and I praised him and thanked him at the time for making the right choice.  You can see how he is now being dodgy about his reasons for allowing anti-free-traveler groups to have tables at his event.  He claims on one hand that he won't allow racist groups to attend his event, but on the other hand claims that he can't control who has tables and who doesn't.  Is it his event, or isn't it?  If he wants to have an event where anyone can have a table (except racists), that's his business.  He also keeps trying to make it seem like he agrees with me, but I'm not sure if he's just not comprehending my points, or is just trying to be an ambassador to everyone.  I was confused by the title of the event, "Live Free or Die" and figured it was a pro-liberty event.  Apparently it's not, but is instead a "free speech" event, where no one is discriminated against except racists.  I am saddened by this discovery and am boycotting the event as he is allowing people advocating bald aggression and a police state to have tables, and I do not wish to be associated with those people.  They are free to speak, and I'm free to be somewhere else.  I invite you all to join in this boycott and let Mr. Coteau know how you feel: Caacp01(at)aol.com

Dear Rich & Those Whom It May Concern,

     In an effort to divert another problem with the 4th annual Live Free Or Die Celebration like we had in regard to your concerns with the band Poker Face playing at the 3rd annual, in almost destroying the event, I'm contacting you now. Where with tough economic times, my wife & I paying for with contemplating  doing the 4th annual event, it is important we understand each other. We put on this event like no other where we attempt to bring many liberty minded advocacy organizations with many ideologies together under one tent for one day a year with a little tolerance in mind. The LFOD Rally constitution strictly discourages any displays of racist or anti Semitic views. We also require and check that organizations who would like to be listed as endorsers that they not be listed as extremist etc. However, it is impossible for us to screen every individual or hold their personal beliefs accountable, or is it fair for anyone to sabotage our good intentions due to that. These days just about everything is considered or accused of having racist links. Its getting ridiculous. Again, our feelings are that if someone isn't displaying, distributing or has music lyric's that are racist, there shouldn't be a problem. After all it is a first amendment event that welcomes all as it should. Certain anti semitic watch dogs groups like OPP have Ron Paul groups, immigration law enforcement groups, etc. listed as being supported by or being racist. Does that mean I have to exclude them now too? We would  well not even bother having the event! We also feel that many of the fractured pro liberty groups would be more effective if  they were combined on shared common causes and ground which we are simply attempting to initiate. We felt your coming in the back door last year was in part due to being an organizer for porc fest to discourage attendance at our event. We hope are feelings are incorrect and that if you or anyone has a problem in the future they contact us directly. F.S.P. members are always welcome and we look forward to their participation for years to come. Thank you for your time and consideration with this matter.

Sincerely,

Jean M. Coutu
Organizer & Chairman

Hi Jean,

I thought your event was great this year and enjoyed attending.  As a lover of liberty, I am concerned that "immigration law enforcement" groups would be invited to your event.  Immigration laws are clearly anti-freedom.  People coming here to live more free should be welcomed, not forced to contend with endless paperwork, fees, and bureaucratic hoops.  Surely you are aware of the "internal checkpoints" that have sprung up across the southern and northern borders, harassing all travelers in the name of "immigration law enforcement".  You've likely heard of the mass roundups of so-called "illegals".  I don't know about you, but I don't like living in a police state.  I'd like to encourage you to not invite such groups to your pro-liberty event- it muddles the message.

I break government laws too.  (drug laws, speeding, etc)  That makes me an "illegal" as well.  I'm proud of it!

Best,
Ian Freeman
Host, "Free Talk Live"

Hi Ian,
    Again, everyone has a list of whom shouldn't be allowed to attend. We were just told by OPP not to allow Ron Paul supporters either or they would list event as anti semetic. I understand your point & totally agree with you. The event welcomes everyone which is why we promote it as a true, all free, 1st amendment event, unlike many other events,as long as there are no displays of racism. Peoples personal beliefs who attend shouldn't mean the event should be deemed as racist. We make it clear that no one has to agree with everyone else who attends or by their attendance it indicates they do support everyone else's views under the tent. There were immigration groups members also at this years event & there wasn't any problem. They share views on other topic's that are in common with other groups. There wasn't any anti semetic's on their literature and people don't have to accept it if they don't want it. There's a lot of different views at the event that is what makes it interesting. The feuding & isolationism of many groups are counter productive as with those who attempt to sabotage the event because they don't agree with everyone. All were asking is if people can't tolerate this or stand under the same tent without discriminating against others or sabotaging the event, we need to know now before my wife & I flush our hard earned money down the toilet. We can stand under any tent with anyone because we're not racists. Its a concept people have hard time grasping. Thank you for your message,your input is important to us.

Peace,

Jean Coutu

Jean,

In regards to people attending, that doesn't bother me.  It's a public event.  Anyone, no matter how much hate is in their heart, is free to attend.  Perhaps they will be infected with a positive message.

My concern is only with those who have tables at the event.  I would be sad to see a pro-liberty event allowing a group that is advocating for a police state in order to stop people born on other plots of land from coming here to have a table.  It makes it appear as though their position is legitimatized and accepted by CAACP.

Hope that makes my position clear!  Thanks for your attention and concern,
Ian

Ian,
   I totally agree and in part event is also to infect people with positive message. Keep in mind the LFOD Celebration is a separate registered entity hosted by no one including the CAACP. The event is supported by all equally & endorses no one or particular groups agenda or beliefs. Another hard concept to grasp. Again, anyone is allowed to speak in favor of or against any topic including immigration, or attend or have a table as long as there isn't any racist related material. If someone doesn't like what someone has at a booth, they don't have to go. Though I agree with you, I as an organizer & only an organizer really am not in a position to decide what's allowed or not. I really don't know any other way without discriminating. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. Its a hard,tough,call. Obviously, between you & me, our vending spots could be all filled up on an inquiry if you know what I mean...

Thanx Again, Jean

Jean,

I have no problem discriminating against intolerance and hate.  It is my intention to ostracize those people if they do not renounce their advocation of aggression against their peaceful neighbors.

I understand what you are saying about how you don't endorse agendas and beliefs, however, by allowing a group that is anti-liberty to have a booth at your pro-liberty event, you are sending a contradictory message.  Allowing such a group to have a table would tarnish and muddle the message of the event.  As the organizer of the event you are absolutely allowed to decide who may set up tables at your event.

If I'm mistaken and your event is not a pro-liberty event but instead a free-speech event where any where any group (except racists) are allowed to attend as vendors, then I apologize for my confusion.

Best,
Ian

Hi Ian,
    We're on the same page. I was pissed the klan & hate groups used the 1400 year old St. Andrews saltire flag of secession as a symbol of hate. However the point of the event is addressing the issues listed which has nothing to do with racism or is the battle ground to ostracize anyone, maybe to enlighten them. You make a good point. Maybe it is a pro freedom of speech event. Its hard to categorize it being a true first amendment event. However its not to say it does or doesn't support pro liberty stances. I realize I can chose who can or can't attend like porc fest or similar organizations hosted events.However, its not hosted by me or anyone or is anyone not "allowed". Again, if there are no displays of racism, discrimination, or anti semetic's, its not up to me to discriminate because of someones personal beliefs or thought crimes. Again, there were immigration law enforcement folks in attendance and had a table spot. Nothing I saw indicated they hated anyone or were there any problems. As you mentioned you enjoyed yourself. If anything like that happens I depend on folks like you to bring it to my attention & of course I'd ask them to vamoose.
Thanx Again, Mike C.

Jean,

I guess I enjoyed myself because I didn't notice the table for the "immigration law enforcers".  I will not be attending next year if they will.  I am saddened as I was under the impression yours was a pro-freedom event.  I will encourage all my friends to stay home as well. 

Those who wish to aggress against their neighbors should be ostracized until they change their ways.  I realize you are saying you don't endorse the views of the vendors, but it *IS* your event, and allowing people who are advocating aggression to have a table at your event tarnishes the whole occasion for me.

I will stick to attending events that are explicitly pro-freedom.  I hope you'll change your mind and stop enabling people advocating aggression against peaceful travelers.

Please let me know if you reconsider,
Ian

Ian,
   O.K.  I give in. I reconsider. OPP doesn't want Ron Paul members attending or their listing it as a white supremist event. Goldman doesn't want anyone there he feels has anti-zionist views or he's trashing the event, you don't want people who support immigration law enforcement there or having tables or your telling people not to attend, someone you work with doesn't agree with Free Staters being there because they walk on & hang american flags upside down, and the list goes on. I give in & will try to figure out how to comply to everyones demands. Now, can anyone just explain to me how to have a first amendment event without allowing anyone to come? I wasn't aware I was enabling so many people to do all these awful things. My apologies. I never had this problem down South. 5,000 blacks,whites, jews,rednecks,indians, bikers, heritage groups, etc. could all come to my events together on common ground and we got al kinds of laws changed. I guess its just impossible up here. Guess my wife & I are saving a lot of money this year...
Thanx Again,  Jean Coutu

[FTL_Ian]

As an additional thought, I did consider protesting the presence of the aggressors, but was concerned they might get violent.  I don't want conflict. 

[Fluff and Stuff]

Ian, it sounds like your silliness is getting to the man.  Maybe you could stop harassing him?  I don't know if you remember, but one of those crazy border folks was at Porcfest 2006 and he seemed like a nice man.  I don't think we have to agree on everything.  Of course, feel free to continue harassing the man if you want.  I'm looking forward to going to the event in 2009 if something more important doesn't come up.

[shyfrog]

I'm going to have to agree with Radical and Stuff on this one.  Jean is hard to follow in this medium let alone in person.
I support the event and look forward to it.

[ArvinJA]

Ian, it sounds like your silliness is getting to the man.  Maybe you could stop harassing him?  I don't know if you remember, but one of those crazy border folks was at Porcfest 2006 and he seemed like a nice man.  I don't think we have to agree on everything.  Of course, feel free to continue harassing the man if you want.  I'm looking forward to going to event this year if something more important doesn't come up.

Now that's a great argument. Hitler was probaly a nice guy once you got to know him, let's give the Nazis a table aswell!

[Fluff and Stuff]

Ian, it sounds like your silliness is getting to the man.  Maybe you could stop harassing him?  I don't know if you remember, but one of those crazy border folks was at Porcfest 2006 and he seemed like a nice man.  I don't think we have to agree on everything.  Of course, feel free to continue harassing the man if you want.  I'm looking forward to going to event this year if something more important doesn't come up.

Now that's a great argument. Hitler was probaly a nice guy once you got to know him, let's give the Nazis a table aswell!

OK.  I'll man it while you're at lunch.

Oh, btw, that was a joke and welcome to the forum.  I hope you stick around.

[shyfrog]

Sweet! We can have a book burning too! We can burn Mein Kampf, Das Kapital, and The Little Red Book!

[William]

You can't "give" the Nazis a table cause it's not your event.

Personally, I feel for the guy what with...

"OPP doesn't want Ron Paul members attending or their listing it as a white supremist event. Goldman doesn't want anyone there he feels has anti-zionist views or he's trashing the event, you don't want people who support immigration law enforcement there or having tables or your telling people not to attend, someone you work with doesn't agree with Free Staters being there because they walk on & hang american flags upside down, and the list goes on."

I think you're being way too exclusive here. It would seem with your immigration stand that you would boycott a Ron Paul rally. It's certainly true that if everyone was this persnickety, there could hardly be an event at all. I personally enjoyed the event, will not boycott it and plan to volunteer again next year.

[FTL_Ian]

Keith, opposing throwing peaceful travelers in cages is "silliness"?  Guess I'll just keep on being silly, then.   

[FTL_Ian]

Just curious, Ian...do you know what exactly the table was about?  What organization bought it?  What exactly their message was?

I don't recall it, as I said in my email to Jean.  I'm going on what he told me.

[ArvinJA]

Sweet! We can have a book burning too! We can burn Mein Kampf, Das Kapital, and The Little Red Book!

Have you read what Rothbard wrote about "Freedom of Speech", if not, you should. Because you clearly do not understand the difference between positive and negative rights. Or have I misunderstood your comment?

EDIT (with quotes):

"Freedom of speech is supposed to mean the right of everyone to say whatever he likes. But the neglected
question is: Where? Where does a man have this right? He certainly does not have it on property on which
he is trespassing. In short, he has this right only either on his own property or on the property of someone
who has agreed, as a gift or in a rental contract, to allow him on the premises. In fact, then, there is no
such thing as a separate "right to free speech"; there is only a man's property right: the right to do as he
wills with his own or to make voluntary agreements with other property owners."

- Murray N. Rothbard (Man, Economy, and State)

"Let us consider, finally, the classic case that is supposed to demonstrate that individual rights can never be
absolute but must be limited by "public policy": Justice Holmes' famous dictum that no man can have the
right to cry "fire" in a crowded theater. This is supposed to show that freedom of speech cannot be absolute.
But if we cease dealing with this alleged human right and seek for the property rights involved, the solution
becomes clear, and we see that there is no need at all to weaken the absolute nature of rights. For the person
who falsely cries "fire" must be either the owner (or the owner's agent) or a guest or paying patron. If he
is the owner, then he has committed fraud upon his customers. He has taken their money in exchange for a
promise to put on a motion picture, and now, instead, he disrupts the performance by falsely shouting "fire"
and creating a disturbance among the patrons. He has thus willfully defaulted on his contractual obligation
and has therefore violated the property rights of his patrons."

- Murray N. Rothbard (Man, Economy, and State)

[Jitgos]

Hmmm.. are you sure Poker Face is racist? I know nothing about them except the song Revolution was in a cool FSP video so I added them as a friend on myspace. This alarmed me so I went to delete them and checked out their page where they have a video on there supporting a black guy for some office. It's an interview the guy had on tv with their music playing at the end. Seems odd for racists to do that.

[FTL_Ian]

Hmmm.. are you sure Poker Face is racist? I know nothing about them except the song Revolution was in a cool FSP video so I added them as a friend on myspace. This alarmed me so I went to delete them and checked out their page where they have a video on there supporting a black guy for some office. It's an interview the guy had on tv with their music playing at the end. Seems odd for racists to do that.

Ever been to their message forum?  There's a thread about it around here.

[Fluff and Stuff]

Hmmm.. are you sure Poker Face is racist? I know nothing about them except the song Revolution was in a cool FSP video so I added them as a friend on myspace. This alarmed me so I went to delete them and checked out their page where they have a video on there supporting a black guy for some office. It's an interview the guy had on tv with their music playing at the end. Seems odd for racists to do that.

Poker Face is a band.  The band is not racist.  1 of the members of the band appears to have very negative feelings of jewish people. 

[dalebert]

It would seem with your immigration stand that you would boycott a Ron Paul rally.

I'm not sure how I feel about LFoD as a whole based on certain participants. I have to give some thought to that. However, I recall when I was still on the fence about whether to stick it out in politics just a little bit longer for Ron Paul and it was his immigration stance that pushed me off that fence. I guess I technically started boycotting, for all practical purposes, in that I withdrew from politics completely and stopped making a special exception for Ron Paul. It could no longer delude myself into thinking I wasn't doing any harm by supporting him. Clearly, there was plenty of potential harm to innocent immigrants. The fact that I was fueling the primary weapon of government, their legitimacy, by playing the political game was a factor that had been weighing on my mind, but it was definitely the immigration issue that knocked it out of the ballpark for me.