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Author Topic: If pushed enough by the fed, like Montana, would NH secede from the union?  (Read 7874 times)

Brandon

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Re: If pushed enough by the fed, like Montana, would NH secede from the union?
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2008, 09:18 PM NHFT »

I think we be f'd in the a.   :o

I will not remove my firearm for govt.  as that ole bastard once said. "from my cold dead hands"  I think its going to be odd having my brother in the Army come to my home and try to disarm me!!!  odd.





It probably wouldn't be your brother coming to disarm you, but UN "peacekeepers".
I think foriegn troops would follow orders opposed to the Constitution without thinking twice about it.
American troops may actually view what they were doing as wrong, and think about why they joined the military in the first place.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: If pushed enough by the fed, like Montana, would NH secede from the union?
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2008, 01:03 AM NHFT »

or cops in Naulins
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Brandon

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Re: If pushed enough by the fed, like Montana, would NH secede from the union?
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2008, 01:07 AM NHFT »

Yep
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BillKauffman

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Re: If pushed enough by the fed, like Montana, would NH secede from the union?
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2008, 08:20 AM NHFT »


To my knowledge, only the original thirteen colonies, Texas, and Hawaii can cede.
As their basis for formation was not the US Constitution, which they later entered into.



When Virginia, New York and Rhode Island ratified the United States Constitution, their conventions specifically ordained the root principles of secession on which the right was founded:

1. "That all power is naturally vested in, and consequently derived from the people,"

2. "That the powers of government may be reassumed by the people whensover it shall become necessary to their happiness."
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: If pushed enough by the fed, like Montana, would NH secede from the union?
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2008, 08:59 AM NHFT »

So did NH...
But some digression over the Jay Treaty remains.
Jefferson and his Democratic Republicans held the treaty to be illegal, in so much as the treaty violated previous treaty with France... and rendered unto the US, French lands currently under British occupational force.
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David

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Re: If pushed enough by the fed, like Montana, would NH secede from the union?
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2008, 11:46 AM NHFT »

The irony of this discussion, is that secession would not require permission from anyone to do.  you do not ask permission to seperate, you say you are going to to it, then figure out how to do it (the tricky part).  How those interested in secession do it will increase or decrease its legitimacy when they do it.  For example, the Lakotah tribe that wants independence is doing so on the basis that the US gov't has repeatedly broken its treaties with the tribe.  The issue of legitimacy is tied largely to support, the more legit they are the more support they will have. 
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: If pushed enough by the fed, like Montana, would NH secede from the union?
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2008, 01:10 PM NHFT »

The Lakotah Tribe isn't seceding... it was never a part of the Union.
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David

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Re: If pushed enough by the fed, like Montana, would NH secede from the union?
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2008, 02:28 PM NHFT »

On paper I agree, but tell that to the feds.   ;)  I somehow doubt they will agree. 
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: If pushed enough by the fed, like Montana, would NH secede from the union?
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2008, 04:20 PM NHFT »

Texas wasn't a territory.

There might be some federal land within its boundaries that was purchased at a later date... be it was a sorvereign republic before entrance to the Union.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: If pushed enough by the fed, like Montana, would NH secede from the union?
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2008, 04:35 PM NHFT »

While its a State... but by secession its protection under the US Constitution ends.
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BillKauffman

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Re: If pushed enough by the fed, like Montana, would NH secede from the union?
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2008, 04:53 PM NHFT »

is that secession would not require permission from anyone to do.  you do not ask permission to seperate, you say you are going to to it, then figure out how to do it (the tricky part). 

I would suggest a list of grievances and nullification first.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: If pushed enough by the fed, like Montana, would NH secede from the union?
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2008, 04:58 PM NHFT »

I would equate it to NH having to 'buy back' federal properties...
More of a means to a quick recognition of its sovereignty.

While if we simply tried to annex the property, it might be considered by the outside as revolutionary...

As for the grievances and nullification, wouldn't that require much the same... a political body that supports at the minimum a return to State sovereignty through self-attained independence?
Since the State of NH depends more than need be on the federal government, and the majority seems to accept this... wouldn't that need to be changed?


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David

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Re: If pushed enough by the fed, like Montana, would NH secede from the union?
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2008, 11:21 PM NHFT »

is that secession would not require permission from anyone to do.  you do not ask permission to seperate, you say you are going to to it, then figure out how to do it (the tricky part). 

I would suggest a list of grievances and nullification first.
Funny that you suggest that, I was working on a slight modification of the US Declaration of Independence.  The bold print is mine, otherwise it is the same Declaration. Suggestions for additional grieviances,  Prepare for walls of text.   ;) 

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve  the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the  powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of  Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that  they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are  endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life,  Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are  instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, —  That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the  Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its  foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall  seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate  that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient  causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to  suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to  which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing  invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism,  it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards  for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and  such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of  Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated  injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute  Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public  good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance,  unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so  suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people,  unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a  right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant  from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into  compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness  his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected,  whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People  at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the  dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose  obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to  encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of  Lands.
-An esitmated 12 million souls are called illegal immigrants due to the obstruction of peaceful migrations, and there are numerous obstructions on ownership and/or rental of land and transportation. 

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for  establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the  amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass  our people and eat out their substance.
-Parisitical levels and types of taxation

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our  legislatures.
-It is a historical fact, that the USA has had a standing army for a very long time in times of peace,

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
-Police actions.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,  and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended  Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
-Many local law enforcement agencies have been militarized by the weapons and training received from the federal government in the form of SWAT training, and all state militias known as the national gaurd, have been placed under federal government control, or must be ready to be under federal government control.

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they  should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
-It is an unwritten rule that those in law enforcement capacities and government service capacities rarely recieve santion equal to that of others for equal offenses. 

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
-Trade is regulated and strangled with numerous rules and complicated and onerous provisions. 

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing  therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once  an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies
-In the neighboring city of New Orleans, the populations were forced to obey curfews, were forcibly disarmed, and were prevented from receiving charitable donations in a time of need. 

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering  fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to  legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging  War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the  lives of our people.
-The corruptable concept of Eminent Domain has been used agianst the people for perversions of even the stated and corruptable purpose of public good. 

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the  works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty &  Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head  of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms  against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall  themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on  the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of  warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
-Undercover agents acting as agent provacatuers have incited riots, violence, and persecution due to their efforts to entrap others, as they encourage the commission of crimes as they investigate alledged crimes. 

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most  humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A  Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit  to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them  from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction  over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement  here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured  them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would  inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the  voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity,  which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind,  Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General  Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of  our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies,  solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be  Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British  Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is  and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have  full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and  to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for  the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine  Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred  Honor.
-Two Hundred and Thirty Three years later, We, a Good and Peaceful People, solemnly declare that we will no longer be politically connected, nor subordinate to any government establishment in the Americas.  We pledge brotherhood and true goodwill with all, and animosity towards none. 
It is our intention to establish an advanced form of federalism known as Choiceocracy, or Panarchy, and will defend our Life, Property, Liberty, and conscious, with Satyahgraha or Duragraha peaceful resistance and direct action.
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tracysaboe

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That's a great right up.

Tracy
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BillKauffman

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That's a great right up.

Tracy

Yes, write up your alley.
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