I was banned from Murphy's Taproom

[Russell Kanning]

1) Keith owns the bar, makes the rules, hires the staff, decides who is allowed in and not

actually ... I bet the government feels they have the right to tell Keith and his partners how to run their business in many areas

[ColdSoul]

1) Keith owns the bar, makes the rules, hires the staff, decides who is allowed in and not

actually ... I bet the government feels they have the right to tell Keith and his partners how to run their business in many areas

Yes but we are talking about from a freedom and liberty perspective right? I am just simply saying what I feel, and think about the issue from a liberty stand point.

[Mike Barskey]

Mike, virtually everyone tips.  You're the only one who has told me he doesn't tip, as a matter of policy.

I know.

I'm not going to post a sign with fifty rules at the front door - when virtually everyone knows those customs anyway.

Just about everyone knows the custom, but my guess is that just about no one knows that tipping is required at Murphy's.

Again, Mike is welcome back, with the understanding that I will automatically add 15% onto his check to compensate the staff.

I'll think about this, as I mentioned in a previous post. However, at the moment it doesn't sound right to me: you'll "charge" me more so that you can give the extra "charge" to the staff as a "tip."

Mike does not understand the economics of the business.  He tells me I should just pay everyone the $12/hour they generally get, and I am "being cheap" for not doing so.

If I pay all of my servers and bartenders $12 per hour, my payroll will skyrocket.  I'll have to pass on that costs (and now we have FICA!) to the customers in the form of higher prices.  99.999% of people will still tip, because that's the custom, only now they'll complain that the prices are much too high.  (I'm talking about charging $6 for a beer and $11 for a hamburger, guys).  They'll go down the street where the prices are still low.  Also, the service would suck because the staff would get $12 per hour regardless of their speed or friendliness.  

I would be out of business in a matter of weeks.

Again, this is basic economics.  I'm not saying it to be rude, I'm saying it because it's true: if you don't understand this train of thought, then I don't know how much I'll be able to help you understand it.  It seems pretty simple to me.

I don't think you're paying attention to what I'm saying, because I've said the same thing. I suggested you could do this or that, which might cost you more money, but then you might have to charge more for your products and services or you might have to offer less products or services. I do understand the basics of austrian economics, including supply and demand, and including the problems that can arise from government interfering in wage setting.

By the way, what I told you you were being "cheap" for was not that you weren't paying your staff $12.00 per hour, but that you are offering to pay them $3.00 per hour of your own money but you expect them to get paid the rest from customers following tradition. I could still be wrong, but at least correctly understand what I said.

(And there was no theft.  His "0" looks very like a "4."  I'm not making it up.  If I were a server, I would have probably made the same mistake - because it's easier to believe that Mike just makes his 4s funny than someone would just not tip.)

Tell you what, Mike, I'll frame the credit card slip and hang it over the mantel, and everybody can judge for themselves.  Sound good to you?

It doesn't matter to me if you frame the receipt and hang it in public. It's your receipt and your mantel. And, again, you seem to ignore what I'm saying: I've admitted the zero looks kind of like a four. But I also said that I didn't write it that way. And in case you're going to demand proof, I've also already said that I have no proof, only years of habit and friends who know me as character witnesses, and that is not proof.

[dalebert]

It certainly seems heavy-handed to me, but Keith can refuse service to anyone at anytime. Some places post a sign to that effect but even if they don't, it's understood. There are laws that can come into play if it's for reasons of certain types of discrimination, but aside from that, it applies even in a legal context so it's not just my libertarian ranting.

The way I've interpreted it isn't that Keith has instituted some new policy that you will be banned if you don't tip. He's just basically responded to someone who made it very clear that he never tips. It seems he's made a character judgment of you based on your own stated actions, which he's free to do.

This conversation does seem to have gotten rather silly on both sides with all the recommendations of what people ought to do in response, the special menu, and with statements of how he should run his restaurant completely differently from 99.9% of all the service restaurants out there, etc.

[Mike Barskey]

Mike has the socialist argument - "Just pay your employees more." But that will inevitably cause much higher prices across the board, and I'll be out of business.  

Again, that is not my argument. It was one suggestion, and it was made with the caveat that it could cause higher prices. I believe I had also given 5-6 other suggestions of ways to possibly do things without tipping. Why have you not commented on those? Are they all "the socialist argument" too?

[Mike Barskey]

Do you pay the 8% meal tax when you eat out?  It's not included in the prices on (most) menus.

If so, why do you pay one commonly accepted surcharge and not the other?

If not, then props to you for being consistent.

I do because it is in the pre-agreed-upon contract; even if it's not in the menu price, it is posted in NH law that the government adds tax to dine-out expenses.

A tip is not a surcharge, by the way (I'm speaking English, here, not legalese). Both are additional amounts added to the actual charge, but a tip is not a charge, and a tax is.

It is a different question and issue whether I am willing not to pay government taxes.

[dalebert]

Mike, you say you don't want to affect a culture change, but the ways you're suggesting that Keith bend over backwards to accommodate your very unusual viewpoint contradicts that. Once again, I would suggest offering a market alternative where you can run things and show that it can work if it's really that important to you. Your suggestions to Keith are getting rather silly. The "expectation" is not unusual. How Keith is handling it certainly seems a bit heavy-handed, I admit, but it really is an expectation everywhere, at least in general. Maybe your examples are merely meant to show that his reaction is unreasonable, but if so it seems to be getting lost in the wash of all these silly suggestions for how he should run his business.

[Mike Barskey]

Mike, you say you don't want to affect a culture change, but the ways you're suggesting that Keith bend over backwards to accommodate your very unusual viewpoint contradicts that... Your suggestions to Keith are getting rather silly. The "expectation" is not unusual. How Keith is handling it certainly seems a bit heavy-handed, I admit, but it really is an expectation everywhere, at least in general. Maybe your examples are merely meant to show that his reaction is unreasonable, but if so it seems to be getting lost in the wash of all these silly suggestions for how he should run his business.

I don't want to affect culture change (but it would be nice if someone else did or if culture just changed on its own). I can see I was unclear, because you understood 2 reasons for me giving my examples that are both not what I intended.

I do not think Keith should do anything different! I don't think he should un-ban me, I don't think he should change his opinion on tipping, and I don't think he should follow any of my suggestions to change how he runs his business. I don't think Keith should bend over, nor should he accommodate me. It would be nice, of course, to be able to hang out with y'all again, but I'll survive.

My suggestions were to show examples or possibilities of non-tipping environments. That's all. I was trying to counter the idea that tipping is the only way to run a business in which it is currently considered customary to accept tips.

[Lloyd Danforth]

I agree.  Keith should just keep on being Keith and let the cards fall where they will.  I'm guessing the Economy is going to make this all this moot anyway.

[AnarchoJesse]

A friend of mine just pointed something out to me. We've pretty much established here that Keith is requiring customers to tip, or he doesn't want them as customers. If tips are required, the wait-staff knows this. If they know they are going to get a tip, where is the incentive to provide excellent service? They can provide mediocre or bad service and they will get a tip anyway. This seems true for all repeat customers.

The thread should have ended here.

Rearden made some comments about "people not understanding economics" and "Mike is making the socialist argument", but this right here is the strongest economic argument in this thread. When you evaluate the hidden costs and what comes with them, you likely have unintended consequences. Praxeologically speaking, the incentive to provide good service disappears-- this is one of the many refutations to socialism that I'm sure you're all somewhat familiar with. So no, Rearden, he isn't giving a socialist argument-- he's giving an argument from value preference, which is at it's core an argument from the STV.

All this side, all I'm seeing from the likes of Rearden and such is an appeal to emotion. The implicit argument is that the waitstaff don't get paid enough, and that they live on those tips. I can certainly see a need for empathy-- if Mike was one of only a handful of customers or Murphy's was hitting on some hard times. But this doesn't seem to be the case in either situation. So Mike doesn't tip? Who gives a shit. I know some people probably tip over (I do this if a waitress/waiter will abide by my idle chit chat when I ask them to surprise me when I'm asked what I want for a side order or some such).... some tip under (I do this when I'm on a date so I know I'll have spare cash just in case)... and very few, if any (and if this thread is to reveal anything) don't tip at all. Does Mike not tipping truly make a difference? I'd wager that it doesn't, and his refusal to tip isn't going to spark a huge cultural "I don't tip" shift anytime within the near future.

Honestly, this is a whole bunch of bleating and bitching over childish bullshit. Grow the fuck up, children.

[dalebert]

Honestly, this is a whole bunch of bleating and bitching over childish bullshit. Grow the fuck up, children.

You basically said in so many words what I was saying about this getting silly. This is the endless debate and whining thread, at least. Every libertarian-ish message board needs one of these.

[Russell Kanning]

I agree.  Keith should just keep on being Keith and let the cards fall where they will.  I'm guessing the Economy is going to make this all this moot anyway.

I think so too.
We are going to have to stop this "Economy" guy or group ... they sound mean.

[Rearden]

Re: the theft accusation.  I've scanned in Mike's credit card receipt, with his permission, over at the Tea Party.  Hopefully this will settle that angle.

I've also posted that Mike is not banned - he never was banned - and that he is welcome to come in with the understanding that I will add a 15% charge to his check, in essence raising my prices just for him in order to pay the staff market wage.  This is exactly what he asked me to do: to do away with tipping, charge more for my goods, and pay the staff directly.

Since I cannot change the larger culture around me, which very much believes in tipping as a custom, this is the best I can do.  It seems to answer his objection to tipping, gets him out of doing it, lets my staff be paid for their service, and he is fully aware the charge will be there so he can't claim he didn't know going in (like he has regarding the nationwide custom of tipping). 

Anyway, my further responses will be on the tea party.  It's too much work following two forums.  I agree that the thread and entire issue is silly and unworthy of this attention.  The only reason that I'm still posting at all is that an employee I very much believe in has been accused of theft, and that a customer claims he was banned, when all I asked him to do was take care of the staff if he comes in.  Hell, he can come in and talk to people all he wants - that doesn't require service. 

[Mike Barskey]

I've also posted that Mike is not banned - he never was banned - and that he is welcome to come in with the understanding that I will add a 15% charge to his check, in essence raising my prices just for him in order to pay the staff market wage.  This is exactly what he asked me to do: to do away with tipping, charge more for my goods, and pay the staff directly.

I don't think I asked you do to anything. I did suggest that raising wages and prices might make for a tip-free environment, but I think I was speaking generally - as a business model, not as a suggestion for Murphy's.

...and he is fully aware the charge will be there so he can't claim he didn't know going in (like he has regarding the nationwide custom of tipping). 

Please quote me where I claimed not to know that tipping is a nationwide custom. Allow me to quote myself from my original blog post which started this discussion:

He also told me that "tipping is a custom in this country - at least, and many others." I'm aware of this, and I'm aware of countries in which tipping is considered an insult (e.g., Japan), and I'm aware that on cruise ships, for example, that are in international waters and flying flags of convenience (i.e., they are not in any country), tipping is also customary; I did not mention any of this to Keith.

Hell, he can come in and talk to people all he wants - that doesn't require service. 

Wow! That should settle this entire discussion! You originally told me, in the back room of your restaurant, "If you're not going to take care of my wait staff, I don't want you in my restaurant." But if you don't mind if I'm there, so long as I don't order food/drink (or order it *and* pay a tip), then I'm happy again: I can hang out there Tuesday nights!

Please verify if I interpreted your statement correctly. May I hang out at Murphy's on Tuesday nights if I either 1) do not purchase food/drink there; or 2) I do purchase food/drink but I also pay tips?

I'll also post this on NH Tea Party, in case you're not reading this thread any more.

[Rearden]

Wow! That should settle this entire discussion! You originally told me, in the back room of your restaurant, "If you're not going to take care of my wait staff, I don't want you in my restaurant." But if you don't mind if I'm there, so long as I don't order food/drink (or order it *and* pay a tip), then I'm happy again: I can hang out there Tuesday nights!

Please verify if I interpreted your statement correctly. May I hang out at Murphy's on Tuesday nights if I either 1) do not purchase food/drink there; or 2) I do purchase food/drink but I also pay tips?

I'll also post this on NH Tea Party, in case you're not reading this thread any more.

That is absolutely correct, Mike.  I have no objection at all to either of those options.  When I made that statement you quoted, it was with the assumption that you were going to be ordering food/drink, thereby requiring service.  If you are not, then by all means come in.  If you order food/drink and tip appropriately, then you are certainly meeting the request in my statement.

And all of that assumes quality service.  If the service is poor, by all means don't tip.