I was banned from Murphy's Taproom

[Soundwave]

Uh... you definitely went down a few notches in my book.

Yes, I will agree that the custom of tipping is confusing, but not tipping at service restaurant just makes you look like a cheap asshole. There are plenty of places you can eat where a tip is not standard. At Panera, for example, our associates are not allowed to take tips (though I overlook it) because we pay them enough. Some jobs pay by the hour, some are salary, some work for commission, some for tips, etc. When you take a job as a server at a full service restaurant, you agree to work for such small pay, because what you are really working for is tips. I used to work for a nice restaurant as a server, and gave exceptional service, which was definitely encouraged by the fact that I was working for tips. I can tell you right now, I'd only wait on you once, and after you stiffed a different server, you would have been banned.

So you think the establishment should pay the servers more money? Why take it out on the server? If they did, the prices would go up, and you'd likely end up spending the same amount of money anyway.  Tipping is rewarding, and can build good relationships if you plan to visit that establishment at a later date. Also, I would think a libertarian would understand and appreciate paying for the service they received. 

I have a lot more to say, but the truth is I hate writing. Maybe I'll talk about it on FTL this week, because this is a topic that really grinds my gears!

I would be mortified to go out to eat with you, and go back inside and leave the server a tip on your behalf.

[William]

In that industry, that is the custom. You don't have to like the custom. You don't have to agree with the custom. You don't have to think the custom is fair, equitable, nice, happy, frolicking, or any other pleasant adjective.

You just need to shut up and conform to the custom?

[Fluff and Stuff]

I learned a great deal from one book, Harry Bowne's How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World.  It taught me to question everything and think for myself.  I reevaluated my life and changed many of my ways because of that book.  I ended long standing customs and traditions because of what I was exposed to by that book.  Thinking for myself and doing as I please has not always been an easy road or a pleasant one; however, I wouldn't change it for the world.  The criticisms of others can be tough, but what is even tougher is looking in the mirror and knowing that you conformed to the reality that others have created around you instead of the reality that you feel inside.  Mike, I don't understand or agree with your decision on this issue and you may get a lot of shit for it, but do as you feel you need to.

[FTL_Ian]

In that industry, that is the custom. You don't have to like the custom. You don't have to agree with the custom. You don't have to think the custom is fair, equitable, nice, happy, frolicking, or any other pleasant adjective.

You just need to shut up and conform to the custom?

Yes, if you want to eat at a restaurant or order take out delivered and not be despised by the people who are serving you!  Otherwise, stick to fast food and buffets.   

[Caleb]

In that industry, that is the custom. You don't have to like the custom. You don't have to agree with the custom. You don't have to think the custom is fair, equitable, nice, happy, frolicking, or any other pleasant adjective.

You just need to shut up and conform to the custom?

Yes! Or perhaps since you intend on bucking the custom, you can inform the waiter ahead of time, "It is my policy not to tip, as I believe it is unfair to you that your employer does not pay you more money. Since he has wronged you, it is my intent to wrong you also. Two negatives make a positive. In the interests of fairness, I choose to let you know that you will not be compensated for service to me today. Since I am changing the custom, I felt it only fair to let you know in advance, as well as to let you know that if you don't want to wait on my cheap ass I will completely understand and will not hold it against you."

If you give that disclaimer, then I guess it's more or less fair, but you're still an asshole.

[Mike Barskey]

I appreciate that you've added your opinions to this discussion, but I don't appreciate your demeanor. In the quotes below, you've intimated that I'm an asshole and a cheapskate, you've misrepresented or misunderstood my position (I've said numerous times that I am not making a political statement or expending energy to be anti-establishment - tipping does not work for me, personally, and so I don't participate), you were condescending (e.g., calling my position "little"), and you use accusatory language (like saying my actions are "shafting" waiters, when that's the entire point of this discussion - I don't think I'm shafting anyone).

I have no desire to communicate with you.

And so a bunch of people are griping and refusing to go along with the custom because it isn't specifically contractually written on the menu? 

I don't represent "a bunch of people" - Are you following this discussion closely? I'm the only person here who doesn't tip, and the only person Keith has an issue with.

I, for one, always have second thoughts about eating with cheapskates who won't tip fairly. It's very uncomfortable for me to be sitting there when the server comes by to see that he's been shafted. At times, it creates pressure for your non-asshole friends to slip the waitress or waiter a little extra money to make up for your blatant disregard at fairly compensating them for their service.

(bolding is mine)

Aren't there better places for anti-establishment energy to be vented than taking it out on those who make $3 an hour?

I'm sorry, but this "I don't legally have to so I'm not going to even if it makes me look like an asshole" attitude seems a little toddleresque to me.

(bolding is mine)

You do need to understand that because of the custom, when you choose to make your little political statement, someone else is not being paid for a service that they legitimately rendered (unless, of course, someone else like the owner or your friend happens to notice you shafting them and compensates for it.)

(bolding is mine)

[Mike Barskey]

I learned a great deal from one book, Harry Bowne's How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World.  It taught me to question everything and think for myself.  I reevaluated my life and changed many of my ways because of that book.  I ended long standing customs and traditions because of what I was exposed to by that book.  Thinking for myself and doing as I please has not always been an easy road or a pleasant one; however, I wouldn't change it for the world.  The criticisms of others can be tough, but what is even tougher is looking in the mirror and knowing that you conformed to the reality that others have created around you instead of the reality that you feel inside.  Mike, I don't understand or agree with your decision on this issue and you may get a lot of shit for it, but do as you feel you need to.

Thanks for that insight, Radical. I've read How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, too. It didn't change my world as it did yours, but it did open up a new perspective for me.

[Mike Barskey]

Yes! Or perhaps since you intend on bucking the custom, you can inform the waiter ahead of time, "It is my policy not to tip, as I believe it is unfair to you that your employer does not pay you more money. Since he has wronged you, it is my intent to wrong you also. Two negatives make a positive. In the interests of fairness, I choose to let you know that you will not be compensated for service to me today. Since I am changing the custom, I felt it only fair to let you know in advance, as well as to let you know that if you don't want to wait on my cheap ass I will completely understand and will not hold it against you."

If you give that disclaimer, then I guess it's more or less fair, but you're still an asshole.

Damn it. I don't want to converse with Caleb because he's so rude (notice he's calling me "asshole" and "cheap ass" again), but this statement of his was just so silly that I wanted to comment.

• I don't intend on bucking the system, I intend on not doing something that I disagree with. The system may go on, if it likes.
  
• It is not my intent to wrong the waiter, nor do I think I'm wronging them by not giving them an optional extra. Perhaps it could be argued that I am not giving them a gift, but I'm certainly not wronging them.
  
• If I don't tip them, they still will be compensated for service to me today: they will still earn their wage. That is their compensation for service to me today; the extra gift for extraordinary service (or, for many people, even for bad service) is what they will not receive from me.
  
• I am changing no custom. I am not trying to change any custom.
  

That said, I'm thinking it may be a good idea to let waiters know when I first sit down that I do not tip. This was mentioned long before Caleb mentioned it (I think Menger Fan mentioned it), and I've been thinking about it ever since. I think I will try that for a while and see how it works for me.

[alohamonkey]

I very rarely post here anymore and I didn't read this whole thread so take this post for what it's worth but . . . if your intention is to not tip, then you should definitely inform the waiter or waitress before they provide you with a service.  When you walk into a restaurant like Murphy's and order food or drink from a waiter or waitress, you are entering into an unspoken contract with them.  Even though it's not legally enforceable (as far as I know), that waiter or waitress is performing a service to you with the expectation that they will receive a tip.  If you don't like the establishment's policy and you wish that they would pay their employees more, that's your beef with the owner.  If you feel that tipping does not reward you in any way, don't enter into an unspoken contract by ordering food from a waiter or waitress.  Stiffing the waittress on a tip punishes them for your disagreement with the owner's policy.  You break your unspoken contract with that waiter or waitress.  Believe it or not, waiters and waitresses don't go to work every day with the expectation of making only $3/hour.  In fact, I think the only way an employer can legally pay them less than minimum wage is under the assumption that the employee will earn tips or commission.  Consider this situation ... I ask a contractor to come over and repair the vinyl siding on my house.  He comes over and does the work with full expectation that I will pay him after the job is completed even though we don't have a written contract.  Can I just refuse to pay him?  No.  We had an unspoken contract that he would be paid after services rendered.

Frankly, I think jobs that offer commission and tips as earnings are much more free-market oriented than jobs that just offer hourly rates.

[Mike Barskey]

Alohamonkey, I'm asking you because your post is the most recent, but this applies to so many other people participating in this thread. Why do you think I don't understand that waiters expect tips? I have stated numerous times that I understand tipping is a custom. By definition, custom is "a traditional and widely accepted way of behaving or doing something that is specific to a particular society" - that means that it is known and expected.

I do not think that people in general agree with my opinions about this. I do understand that I am in the fringe minority by holding this opinion. Neither of the previous two facts are related to or affect any of my opinions about tipping.

I'm not sure that an expectation of tradition is an unspoken contract, but I'm rethinking this now. And, like I said very recently in this thread, I am going to try telling waiters as I start my transaction at the restaurant that I don't tip.

[Mike Barskey]

Uh... you definitely went down a few notches in my book.

Bummer, especially after I just recently learned that I was "OK" in your book.

Yes, I will agree that the custom of tipping is confusing, but not tipping at service restaurant just makes you look like a cheap asshole.

You couldn't or didn't want to find any nicer way of saying this?

There are plenty of places you can eat where a tip is not standard. At Panera, for example, our associates are not allowed to take tips (though I overlook it) because we pay them enough. Some jobs pay by the hour, some are salary, some work for commission, some for tips, etc. When you take a job as a server at a full service restaurant, you agree to work for such small pay, because what you are really working for is tips.

If a person takes a job with an employer that pays $3.00 per hour because that person expects to earn lots more from people being generous, does it become my responsibility to be generous with my money? If I take a job in my industry (IT support) that pays 50% of what normal IT people make, can I then expect all my customers to tip me if I provide extraordinary service, since I'm earning so little? Or, if it's not a percentage thing, let's say I take an IT Support job that pays $3.00 per hour; can I expect my customers to tip me? Are those that don't, cheap assholes? Why are waiters different?

So you think the establishment should pay the servers more money? Why take it out on the server? If they did, the prices would go up, and you'd likely end up spending the same amount of money anyway.  Tipping is rewarding, and can build good relationships if you plan to visit that establishment at a later date. Also, I would think a libertarian would understand and appreciate paying for the service they received. 

All these arguments have been addressed a few times so far.

I have a lot more to say, but the truth is I hate writing. Maybe I'll talk about it on FTL this week, because this is a topic that really grinds my gears!

I hope you're able to control your emotions instead of letting them control you, and think logically about this custom and whether it's arbitrary and whether it's alright if people don't participate in the system you agree with. Also, when you've controlled your emotions, perhaps you won't call people "assholes" because they have a different opinion than you.

[Caleb]

my only complaint is that you didn't bold "toddleresque". I'm glad that you caught onto my attitude. Sometimes niceties don't adequately convey the contempt that I have for that sort of behavior. "tipping doesn't work for me".... ?  Please.  How about serving you doesn't work for them. Your grievance is beyond petty, and I have no desire to talk about big boy topics with emotional toddlers pretending to be grownups.

[lastlady]

So mostly this thread is focused on the concept of waiters / waitresses / servers who make $3.00 an hour but lets talk about the act of tipping for other industries. I have mixed feelings about the idea of tipping personally. In California ALL servers, waitresses, waiters get minimum wage $7.50, just like a lot of other folks out there who don't get tips. I often tip the standard 15% to 20%, but a few years ago I stopped tipping for bad service.

Women spend lots of money at hair salons, spa treatments, massage, and skin care. These people make a lot more than $3.00. They can make anywhere from $20-50 an hour if not more. There is an expectation of a tip from 15% to 20%.

What then?? What about the fact that the government now adds I believe a 10% imposed tax on all of ones earnings? So the idea if you don't tip they are paying taxes on it as if they did?

Also what about a hair stylist who generally gets tipped, what if they're the salon owner and getting the $50-$200 for the service and products? Do you tip that person?

When someone does something for me and I have enjoyed their service and a tip is expected I typically tip high, but when I don't get good service I adjust the tip. I have seen people tip and tip well for horrible service and that is bullshit. So for all the people who keep talking about making $3.00 an hour ,what about those who make $30.00?

[Russell Kanning]

Aren't there better places for anti-establishment energy to be vented than taking it out on those who make $3 an hour?

I'm sorry, but this "I don't legally have to so I'm not going to even if it makes me look like an asshole" attitude seems a little toddleresque to me.

or taking it out on those that make forum posts about not tipping?
When has Mike ever mentioned the legality of this situation as effecting him?
We have a custom on this forum that redheadedstepchildren are not allowed to criticize others from long distance.

[doobie]

Consider this situation ... I ask a contractor to come over and repair the vinyl siding on my house.  He comes over and does the work with full expectation that I will pay him after the job is completed even though we don't have a written contract.  Can I just refuse to pay him?  No.  We had an unspoken contract that he would be paid after services rendered.

If it is a verbal only contract (or even if it is in writing) and he doesn't do the job right or on time, he violated the contract first and shouldn't be paid in full; especially if his portion ends up costing me.