I was banned from Murphy's Taproom

[Tom Sawyer]

... perhaps you won't call people "assholes" because they have a different opinion than you.

I don't think Mike is an asshole... but last night he was a dick. 
Well, a dick modified into the Anarchy Boogieman. Great costume Mike. 

[Mike Barskey]

I don't think Mike is an asshole... but last night he was a dick. 
Well, a dick modified into the Anarchy Boogieman. Great costume Mike. 

hehe. I was a huge dick, last night. 6' tall, actually. Thanks!

And thanks, lastlady, for refocusing the topic to a more general look at tipping instead of one specific experience or industry. Good questions.

[Friday]

Since this is apparently the thread that will not die (just in time for Halloween  ), and everyone else has expressed an opinion, whether or not they live within a 1000 mile radius of Mike *or* Murphy's Taproom...

I think some interesting arguments have been made on both sides.  I definitely think the *honorable* thing to do is to inform any waiter/waitress/bartender (if you intend to be at the bar for a while) in advance that you have no intention of tipping them.  It's not legally required, it's not contractually required, but it's the respectful and honest thing to do.  That way, you give the server an opportunity to provide you with $3/hour worth of service, and no more. 

Here's an analogy: if you're attending a holiday party with a Yankee Swap, and you have no desire to participate, it seems to me it's courteous to let the host/organizer know *in advance* that you will not be participating.  That way, others don't spend their time and money preparing a gift for someone with the false expectation that you will be participating and doing the same for them.

I've read "How I Found Freedom In An Unfree World", too, and I understand intellectually that, ultimately, no one is responsible for fulfilling the expectations of others.  Very, very few people have the logical consistency and self-confidence to really live that way and to bear the social consequences (I certainly don't).  As a few others have mentioned, I find it HIGHLY embarrassing to eat out with someone who refuses to tip.  I have lots of experience with this, as my ex-husband both came from a different country where tipping is not the cultural norm, and was one of those rare individuals who does exactly what he wants, when he wants, and doesn't give a shit who calls him an asshole for it.  This caused many arguments between us, sneaky attempts on my part to leave a tip behind when he wasn't looking, etc.

Just my two centimes.   

[Mike Barskey]

I definitely think the *honorable* thing to do is to inform any waiter/waitress/bartender (if you intend to be at the bar for a while) in advance that you have no intention of tipping them.  It's not legally required, it's not contractually required, but it's the respectful and honest thing to do.  That way, you give the server an opportunity to provide you with $3/hour worth of service, and no more. 

I've recently (during this discussion) decided to start doing this (telling waiters before I begin my dining experience that I don't tip), but I appreciate the way you phrased this. The last sentence above put the scenario at an angle I hadn't really thought of. I did realize that the servers were being paid $3.00 per hour and that tips were extra, I just didn't follow that thought through and realize that they should also then be offering $3.00-per-hour service. According to my philosophy, if the restaurant owner wanted them to provide better service (or even good service) he'd be paying them more (or if the server who earned so little wanted to provide better service, s/he could do it despite being paid so little). That makes it all the more clear to me that I should indeed tell them in advance that I won't be tipping.

[FTL_Ian]

Mike, I tried to bring you onboard with tipping before she found the thread!  Soundwave may not exactly be tactful on this issue, but she's being totally logical.  Allow me to explain.  In regards to how she feels, I think she's just disappointed you don't see value in tipping and are willing to be seen a negative light over this.  She's also empathizing with the servers you've stiffed, because she's been there.  

Here's the cold, hard logic:

She works hard to earn a tip serving you.  You don't tip, she chalks it up as you forgot.  Next time you come in, if you don't tip, she's done with you, and you're asked by the manager why you don't tip, and probably banned immediately upon your "I don't tip" response.  (That's what would have happened to you where she worked as a server.)  Or they'll be more reasonable, like Keith, and tell you you'll be charged 15% extra on your next visit.

If a person takes a job with an employer that pays $3.00 per hour because that person expects to earn lots more from people being generous, does it become my responsibility to be generous with my money?

It's an unspoken agreement based on a common, consensual custom.  You have no responsibility, as it is not explicit, but if you don't want to be ostracized by a good group of people, you should go along with the custom.  It seems clear from this thread, that you don't really care who gets upset at you, or who ostracizes you, even if they are in your direct peer group.  I find this extremely confusing.  Why give up good relationships (and good restaurant service) over a few dollars?

If I take a job in my industry (IT support) that pays 50% of what normal IT people make, can I then expect all my customers to tip me if I provide extraordinary service, since I'm earning so little? Or, if it's not a percentage thing, let's say I take an IT Support job that pays $3.00 per hour; can I expect my customers to tip me? Are those that don't, cheap assholes? Why are waiters different?

Your IT example would only be valid if people knew they had to tip their IT guy.  You can't expect them to tip, as it's not a cultural norm.  You can begin this cultural shift by announcing that you work for tips every time you take a call.  Until that happens, your comparison is invalid, as yes there is a difference in your examples:  in one career, tipping is the norm, in the other, it is not.

This is a fact, whether you like it or not: Servers are working directly for you.  Most people know this and act accordingly.  You know it and still pay them 0.  You blame the custom and the management, but that server is the person who is taking the brunt of your "principle".  They will stop serving you eventually, because you won't pay them!  Unless people keep picking up your slack when they are shocked/saddened to discover AFTER eating with you that you don't tip, like poor Lou.  Mike, I think you're a good guy and a great activist, but you're misguided on this issue.

I'd go out to get some fast food or a buffet with you, but that's about it.

Now then, that's a handful of people on this thread who have explicitly told you they wouldn't eat out with you as a result of this knowledge.  Imagine how many others are telling themselves, "Hmm, not going out to eat with Mike", and won't admit it to you.  In fact, let's put up a little poll.

[FTL_Ian]

New poll:

If you knew in advance that your friend doesn't tip, would you eat at restaurants with him?  Cast your vote:
http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=15915.0

[Mike Barskey]

Mike, I tried to bring you onboard with tipping before she found the thread!

hehe. Thanks for trying!

Here's the cold, hard logic:

She works hard to earn a tip serving you.  You don't tip, she chalks it up as you forgot.  Next time you come in, if you don't tip, she's done with you, and you're asked by the manager why you don't tip, and probably banned immediately upon your "I don't tip" response.  (That's what would have happened to you where she worked as a server.)  Or they'll be more reasonable, like Keith, and tell you you'll be charged 15% extra on your next visit.

OK. Sounds reasonable.

It seems clear from this thread, that you don't really care who gets upset at you, or who ostracizes you, even if they are in your direct peer group.  I find this extremely confusing.  Why give up good relationships (and good restaurant service) over a few dollars?

I should clarify. I have made it clear that I know people will ostracize me for this yet I do it anyway, but I do care about it (at least, I care about some of the people who ostracize me for this ). However, I'm not doing this to save a few dollars.

First, it's not a few dollars; it's a few dollars every time I eat out - it's 15-20% of what I spend on dining out, which is more than a few dollars. But more importantly, I'm not concerned about the money; I'm concerned about the meaning of spending the money this way.

And whenever I discover a friend has a problem with my ideas on tipping, I rethink if it's worth it to me to continue my practice. I usually end up thinking something like "Well, if this friend doesn't want to be my friend because I'm acting on my principles - even when they disagree with my principles - then are they really a good friend?"

Your IT example would only be valid if people knew they had to tip their IT guy.  You can't expect them to tip, as it's not a cultural norm.  You can begin this cultural shift by announcing that you work for tips every time you take a call.  Until that happens, your comparison is invalid, as yes there is a difference in your examples:  in one career, tipping is the norm, in the other, it is not.

Good point. Tipping is not expected in the IT support industry. I have a separate issue with that (why isn't it expected for that industry? what does that mean about why it's expected for waiters?), but you're right: my IT example falls flat.

This is a fact, whether you like it or not: Servers are working directly for you.  

I don't understand how that's so. I don't pay their wage, I don't train them on how to serve or tell them what to dress, I don't give them medical benefits or tell them their working schedule, I don't expect them to be working there tomorrow or a year from now, I may not even want them to be working there. How are they working directly for me?

I can see that they are interacting directly with me, serving me directly because that's part of their job (which I didn't have any part in agreeing to), but I don't see how they're working for me.

Unless people keep picking up your slack when they are shocked/saddened to discover AFTER eating with you that you don't tip, like poor Lou.  

I don't think Lou is "poor" Lou, and I have spoken to him about it since I learned he tips extra when I don't. Maybe you should ask him if he feels taken advantage of or treated poorly by me.

Mike, I think you're a good guy and a great activist, but you're misguided on this issue.

Thanks, and you may indeed be right. I don't think so yet, but I am considering every logical statement I'm hearing. Please remember that I find this principle very uncomfortable to act on in this culture.

[FTL_Ian]

First, it's not a few dollars; it's a few dollars every time I eat out - it's 15-20% of what I spend on dining out, which is more than a few dollars. But more importantly, I'm not concerned about the money; I'm concerned about the meaning of spending the money this way.

If it was about the money, then you cannot afford to eat out.  It's a pricey luxury.  Spending your money on a tip means nothing more than you paying someone for providing you with good service.  That's it and that's all.

And whenever I discover a friend has a problem with my ideas on tipping, I rethink if it's worth it to me to continue my practice. I usually end up thinking something like "Well, if this friend doesn't want to be my friend because I'm acting on my principles - even when they disagree with my principles - then are they really a good friend?"

It's a fair question, but a better one might be, "Am I being a good friend by putting my friends in the uncomfortable position of having to increase their tip to make up for me, or else look like a bad customer?" 

I don't understand how that's so. I don't pay their wage, I don't train them on how to serve or tell them what to dress, I don't give them medical benefits or tell them their working schedule, I don't expect them to be working there tomorrow or a year from now, I may not even want them to be working there. How are they working directly for me?

While it is true that they have an employer who pays them a small amount to occupy his premises between certain hours, they essentially operate as independent contractors regards to all their customers. I can already hear your objection that, "I didn't sign the contract". This is true. The situation is that this particular contract is so common in the culture that it doesn't need to be explicit. The server gives you service without going over the terms, because they believe you understand and agree to them. You understand them, however you don't agree, but they don't know that until the end.  It should be very interesting when you start announcing in advance that you don't tip. I'm very intrigued to hear what will happen to you.

I can see that they are interacting directly with me, serving me directly because that's part of their job (which I didn't have any part in agreeing to), but I don't see how they're working for me.

You're just playing semantics at this point. You're ordering things from them, and they are filling your order. They are working for both you and their other employer simultaneously.

[Mike Barskey]

Spending your money on a tip means nothing more than you paying someone for providing you with good service.  That's it and that's all.

(my bolding)

How can you claim that after so many different reasons have been given so far for tipping? That's apparently your main or only reason, but you're making an objective statement that this one reasons is all that tipping means to everybody, and this has already been proven false via people expressing different reasons they tip.

While it is true that they have an employer who pays them a small amount to occupy his premises between certain hours, they essentially operate as independent contractors regards to all their customers. I can already hear your objection that, "I didn't sign the contract". This is true. The situation is that this particular contract is so common in the culture that it doesn't need to be explicit. The server gives you service without going over the terms, because they believe you understand and agree to them. You understand them, however you don't agree, but they don't know that until the end.  It should be very interesting when you start announcing in advance that you don't tip. I'm very intrigued to hear what will happen to you.

(bolding mine)

The part I bolded sounds strikingly similar to your take on the "social contract" that doesn't exist. The vast majority of people think it does, but you don't - and on principle, you don't adhere to this contract despite that it makes your friends (and girlfriend, sometimes) uncomfortable.

[FTL_Ian]

I like to attempt to put this in an equally absurd perspective for you:

I have decided that I do not like the common custom of paying for things at a cash register.  I just hate waiting in those lines, as I have so many better things to be doing with my time. Plus, I don't appreciate being treated like cattle. Last night at the grocery store, I loaded up my cart full of items, continually calculating the total cost as I shopped. As I headed out of the store I went ahead and dropped off a stack of cash at the customer service counter, and headed for the door.  Would you believe a manager stopped me right before I left the store?  He told me that while he appreciated my business, they do require that all customers check out at cash registers.  I said to him, "Well if that is the case then why have you not put this requirement on the front door?".  He responded by telling me that it's a common custom, apologized for any confusion, and asked me to come back to the cash registers to check out appropriately.  I told him, "Sir, I have calculated my food cost, and paid over the total amount.  As you can see from the large amount of food in my basket, I have brought you a lot of business tonight.  I disagree with your custom of checking out of cash registers.  Are you saying you do not want my business?"  He told me that he did want my business, but if I was not willing to engage in the common custom of checking out at a cash register, he would have to give me my money and take my food back. I walked out of that store hungry because I stick to my principles.  Good thing they have a dumpster.  There was some moldy bread in there.

[FTL_Ian]

I was waiting to see if you would bring up the "social contract" objection. This is not a valid comparison, as coercion is involved in the "social contract".  In regards to the business transactions we are discussing, there is no coercion involved.  Good try!   

[dalebert]

First off, real quick, the problem I have with the social contract is that it's used to justify force. That is not just an important distinction, but it's in fact THE fundamental distinction that makes it unlibertarian.

Now, I going to try to rephrase my question from earlier. Maybe it was the wrong question. Actually I probably didn't phrase it as a question. I basically asked you to clarify because your actions seem to belie your claim that you're not trying to affect a culture shift because you seem to feel very strongly about this, to the point of fighting back and forth on it for twelve pages. So let me ask an actual question because I'm still not clear, and I'm going to ask you to be succinct, because 12 pages of "walls of text" and going back and forth point for point still seems to have left people baffled.

What exactly is the principle that you feel you're violating by going along with this custom?

[FTL_Ian]

Spending your money on a tip means nothing more than you paying someone for providing you with good service.  That's it and that's all.

(my bolding)

How can you claim that after so many different reasons have been given so far for tipping? That's apparently your main or only reason, but you're making an objective statement that this one reasons is all that tipping means to everybody, and this has already been proven false via people expressing different reasons they tip.

I disagree.  The above is what it all boils down to.  Motivations may differ, but the actual transaction is simple.  They work for you; you pay them.  Or in your case, you don't.  

[Mike Barskey]

I like to attempt to put this in an equally absurd perspective for you:

I have decided that I do not like the common custom of paying for things at a cash register.  I just hate waiting in those lines, as I have so many better things to be doing with my time. Plus, I don't appreciate being treated like cattle. Last night at the grocery store, I loaded up my cart full of items, continually calculating the total cost as I shopped. As I headed out of the store I went ahead and dropped off a stack of cash at the customer service counter, and headed for the door.  Would you believe a manager stopped me right before I left the store?  He told me that while he appreciated my business, they do require that all customers check out at cash registers.  I said to him, "Well if that is the case then why have you not put this requirement on the front door?".  He responded by telling me that it's a common custom, apologized for any confusion, and asked me to come back to the cash registers to check out appropriately.  I told him, "Sir, I have calculated my food cost, and paid over the total amount.  As you can see from the large amount of food in my basket, I have brought you a lot of business tonight.  I disagree with your custom of checking out of cash registers.  Are you saying you do not want my business?"  He told me that he did want my business, but if I was not willing to engage in the common custom of checking out at a cash register, he would have to give me my money and take my food back. I walked out of that store hungry because I stick to my principles.  Good thing they have a dumpster.  There was some moldy bread in there.

I was waiting to see if you would bring up the "social contract" objection. This is not a valid comparison, as coercion is involved in the "social contract".  In regards to the business transactions we are discussing, there is no coercion involved.  Good try!  

I want to say that your couch situation, then, is one against cultural norm that you are fighting, despite it making people like Mark and Julia uncomfortable, but I'm just not sure if the analogy is there.

Your shopping cart example was good. I'm going to think about this.

[dalebert]

I want to say that your couch situation, then, is one against cultural norm that you are fighting, despite it making people like Mark and Julia uncomfortable, but I'm just not sure if the analogy is there.

Your shopping cart example was good. I'm going to think about this.

Ian's beef is with the violent enforcement. He's made this very clear. He's also said that if his neighbors have an issue with it, he's willing to move it. All he asks is that they be neighborly and polite about it and simply ask him to move it instead of resorting to violence.