I was banned from Murphy's Taproom

[FTL_Ian]

I want to say that your couch situation, then, is one against cultural norm that you are fighting, despite it making people like Mark and Julia uncomfortable, but I'm just not sure if the analogy is there.

The norm here is people mostly leave each other alone.  My neighbors don't care about the couch; I've talked to them.  Plus, Julia and Mark have my back.  

Anyway, glad that comparison example got you thinking from a different perspective.

[Lloyd Danforth]

Having a couch on your lawn is your right, but, not the Norm.

[FTL_Ian]

Not my couch, or my lawn.  Plus, it's been the norm for over two years.

[Vitruvian]

Am I the first one to post this clip?

Tipping scene from "Reservoir Dogs"

I will side with Mike on this issue.

[Friday]

Am I the first one to post this clip?

Tipping scene from "Reservoir Dogs"

I will side with Mike on this issue.

Yes, you are!  What a trip; I've never seen that movie.  That pretty much sums up this entire thread.   

[dalebert]

Yes, you are!  What a trip; I've never seen that movie.  That pretty much sums up this entire thread.   

It does sort of sum it up, as in showing some of both sides, but it doesn't resolve it by any means. There are even some of the same misconceptions in there as have been exposed in this thread, like that wait staff makes minimum wage.

[William]

It's an unspoken agreement based on a common, consensual custom.  You have no responsibility, as it is not explicit, but if you don't want to be ostracized by a good group of people, you should go along with the custom.  It seems clear from this thread, that you don't really care who gets upset at you, or who ostracizes you, even if they are in your direct peer group.  I find this extremely confusing.  Why give up good relationships (and good restaurant service) over a few dollars?

Not sure I like the tone of this paragraph. Reminds me of two things;

If you don't want to play my way, I'll take my ball and go home.

If you really loved me you'd...

Why give up good relations over a few dollars indeed! He's not making the choice to end the relationships.

[William]

Fantastic movie. I thought about it the first day this came up but never got around to finding the clip. Glad someone did.

[FTL_Ian]

Why give up good relations over a few dollars indeed! He's not making the choice to end the relationships.

Maybe, but are you suggesting that servers should just keep being friendly with non-tippers and keep on serving them anyway?  Can you blame them for saying, "I'm not serving that guy, I'll spend my time on clients who appreciate me."?

If you want things, you must give others what they want.  If you want good service, you should tip.  If you want to be a social pariah among those in the service industry and those close to them, by all means don't tip.

They bring you food and drinks; you give nothing; next time they bring nothing.  I think you end the relationship by not doing what is expected of you.

[Caleb]

Great point. And why force the confrontation in the first place? Why turn what can be (and usually is) a very pleasant social interaction into a confrontational ordeal?

Can SOMEONE please answer Dale's question:  What principle of honor are you violating by tipping?

[mackler]

This is a fact, whether you like it or not: Servers are working directly for you.  

I don't understand how that's so. I don't pay their wage, I don't train them on how to serve or tell them what to dress, I don't give them medical benefits or tell them their working schedule, I don't expect them to be working there tomorrow or a year from now, I may not even want them to be working there. How are they working directly for me?

You left out a big one there, Mike: servers don't set the prices on the menu.  Does anyone here tip the owner of a restaurant for waiting on their table?  I don't.  If the owner thinks s/he's not getting paid enough for the food & services it's hir own darn fault for setting the prices too low, and s/he's in a position to correct that problem.  The server is not.

If the server was really working directly for the customer, if the server was really an independent contract, wouldn't the server be able to put whatever prices s/he wanted on the menu?

[Lloyd Danforth]

Not my couch, or my lawn.  Plus, it's been the norm for over two years.

TWO YEARS!

Well.....that's   a tradition I can't argue with

[William]

Why give up good relations over a few dollars indeed! He's not making the choice to end the relationships.

Maybe, but are you suggesting that servers should just keep being friendly with non-tippers and keep on serving them anyway?  Can you blame them for saying, "I'm not serving that guy, I'll spend my time on clients who appreciate me."?

Not getting very attentive or otherwise above average service seems like a good free market solution. Not getting any service doesn't seem to be the right answer. They should continue to do the job they were hired to do.

The rarity of a non-tipper makes me lean towards the server just bucking up and getting over it. Everyone who has a job has things they don't like about their job. Getting stiffed occasionally is part of the business. Whether it's 4 different people per month or the same guy 4 times is irrelevant. The truth  is that the "few dollars" really didn't make much of a % difference in the servers wage at the end of the week.

If you want things, you must give others what they want.  If you want good service, you should tip.  If you want to be a social pariah among those in the service industry and those close to them, by all means don't tip.

I can understand the server getting all emotional even though, again, in the grand scheme of things, an extra "few dollars" more or less is not going to impact their lives. What I was was really referring to was the idea that a friend or acquaintance should be ostracized on account of the few dollars.

I think you end the relationship by not doing what is expected of you.

And there is the rub. Does Mike really have an obligation to spend his money the way other people think he should? Does anyone have the right to expect another to spend their money or time in a certain way?

What if I started "expecting" people to donate 20% to my favorite charity and when they didn't, I ostracized them for not living up to my expectations? This may not be the best example but you get the point.

I may have all sorts of unreasonable expectations for you. Indeed, society seems to have many unreasonable expectations for me (like paying taxes). In fact, I have been shunned by people for owning firearms, open carrying firearms, not paying income tax etc. I personally think that the reason many more people don't open carry is they're too afraid of ridicule and can't stand the thought of someone not liking them or calling them a bad name.

How much control of my life am I willing to relinquish to friends, family or even total strangers for the privilege of not being called an asshole, cheapskate, gun nut, tax evader, pariah etc? Mind you this only buys be a temporary reprieve because soon enough they'll have some other way that I'm expected to spend my time - money (life).

Here's my disclaimer that I do in fact tip within or above the bounds deemed acceptable by society but I want to say kudos to Mike for not backing down to the emotional barrage.

[FTL_Ian]

Not getting very attentive or otherwise above average service seems like a good free market solution. Not getting any service doesn't seem to be the right answer. They should continue to do the job they were hired to do.

They have no obligation to continue to serve non-tippers, and good managers will back them up.

[dalebert]

This why I'm trying so hard to get a clear and concise answer from Mike about what he feels is principled about this stand. And not backing down to pressure is meaningless until I know what principled position you're refusing to back down from. Social pressure is an important part of order in a voluntary society. It's not an inherently bad thing unless it's encouraging bad behavior, and some do, IMO. Hopefully absent violence, the good gets naturally selected from the bad over time. There are lots of customs in a civilized society and I would say they are an important part of making society work. Politeness is a custom. If someone doesn't ever say "thank you" when people do nice things for them, that starts to come across as impolite.

We are all free to make personal judgments of people based on the things they choose to do. It's the other side of the coin that we are free to ignore social pressures. It's at the root of ostracism, which is basically just an extreme form of making personal judgments that doesn't involve violence. If I hang around someone, it's because I consider that person pleasant to be around and I like them. They have value to me. Heck, I might not choose to be someone's friend because we don't have anything in common and just don't have fun together. It's not necessarily a punishment. And if they are making personal choices that make them unlikable to me personally, I am completely free to not be their friend, perhaps even to call them names and tell other people what I think of them. We shouldn't punish voluntary choices using violence but we don't have to reward them either. If I had a friend who was impolite in my judgment, I'd encourage them to change or perhaps I just wouldn't like that person and I might not speak very highly of the person. That's all that's going on here as far as I can tell is differences in what people consider to be polite, or in a few cases bare minimum acceptable, social behavior.

Now, let me just qualify that by saying I don't feel that strongly about it, because it gets figured into my whole perception of Mike which is generally very positive. If I'd just met Mike at dinner, and this was the first prominent characteristic I ever witnessed of him, I'm sure it would make a very bad first impression on me and I might not even go to much effort to get to know him after that. That is assuming he wasn't able to explain why it's a principled stance for him.

It's a very different thing when someone says they'll support violence against me because of my principled position that taxes are theft or self defense is an inherent right. I'm not going to compromise my principles to stay friends with someone and I wouldn't expect anyone else to. It might even be a good thing that two people stop being friends over principles if they feel strongly enough about it and can't come to some reconciliation. It probably avoids unhealthy emotional trauma.