Addison to Death!

[Free libertarian]

I know a lot of assholes.  I'd rather you not support hanging them for being assholes. 

I didn't say hang EVERY asshole. But if the asshole in question kills someone without just casue, hang them. Make the punishment appropriate. This prison is for rehab is a load of BS. It doesn't rehab anyone.

And "punishment" does what? (Other than satisfy some base emotion...)

Punishment as in the death penalty ensures THAT person will not murder again. I'm not making a moral judgement, just stating that dead guys don't murder again.

[Free libertarian]

I think imprisoning someone (humanely) is probably justified in some cases but only if it's absolutely necessary to protect people. None of us has the moral authority to choose a punishment and punishment serves no noble purpose. Your lust for vengeance is a personal problem that you need to deal with on your own. It's a sickness inflicted on you by a violent culture.

Dale you have given some good answers so I ask you the following;

Who pays for the jail?  Who decides who goes to jail? When they get out etc.?
What if the "humane" jail houses a prisoner who wins the trust of his keepers and then the prisoner murders again? What happens then?


 

[J’raxis 270145]

I know a lot of assholes.  I'd rather you not support hanging them for being assholes. 

I didn't say hang EVERY asshole. But if the asshole in question kills someone without just casue, hang them. Make the punishment appropriate. This prison is for rehab is a load of BS. It doesn't rehab anyone.

And "punishment" does what? (Other than satisfy some base emotion...)

Punishment as in the death penalty ensures THAT person will not murder again. I'm not making a moral judgement, just stating that dead guys don't murder again.

According to the Fedgov's Bureau of Justice Statistics, only 1% of murderers recidivate. That means that for every time the death penalty stops a murderer from committing another murder, ninety-nine murderers were killed who didn't "need" to be.

Interestingly, that ratio is a complete inversion of Franklin's old dictum about guilty men...

[dalebert]

Very good questions, but before I offer some speculations about what will happen in a truly free society, I want you to consider this. None of those questions are answered satisfactorily by an authoritarian monopoly with no real accountability. Such an organization cannot be "fixed" until it stops being an authoritarian monopoly. Read Anarchy Isn't the Answer for an overview that relates to this problem and many others. I will try to sum it up by saying that the free market won't fix all of our problems and create a Utopian society, but an authoritarian monopoly won't either. So the trap that people fall into when they start asking "what if" questions is starting from the deluded point of view that our current government is addressing these problems when it's not, or at the very least it's putting out one fire while setting 10 or 100 others.

Who pays for the jail?  Who decides who goes to jail? When they get out etc.?

I think in most cases it would be those who want to protect potential victims and also keep the criminal from dying in a revenge killing, so likely family of the criminal or churches and charitable organizations. I would contribute to such an organization. As for who decides, that's whatever organizations take on that role in the free market. Fortunately, they wouldn't be authoritarian monopolies so they would be accountable for the choices they make, both to whoever funds them as well as to whoever may feel they're overstepping what's morally acceptable. If they attempt to act against someone who hasn't been thoroughly proven to be guilty, then they're the aggressors and may become subject to violence. I think that would be rare though, at least compared to now, because a free market would offer so many avenues for resolving conflicts before it came to that.

What if the "humane" jail houses a prisoner who wins the trust of his keepers and then the prisoner murders again? What happens then?

That happens now. Are you asking how is the world going to be made into a perfect place where no one ever makes a mistake and there is no crime and no one ever dies or gets sick or has damage to their property... You got me. I don't know. I guess we need to keep absolving ourselves of personal responsibility and continue delegating all of our decisions to a violent criminal organization .

[dalebert]

I'm trying to find an article. I think it was on Lew Rockwell but it's not turning up. Maybe someone recalls it. It was article exploring what might happen if murder were legalized.

UPDATE: Can't find it right now but if you have the patience, I found this good article by Rothbard.

[ColdSoul]

I liked George Carlin's idea of fencing off those square states North Dakota, SD, etc for a total of 4 and then put all the people in those sections. Like section a) Pedophiles, b) Murders, etc. Then drop off all the drugs and guns and food in each of the areas and put only 1 or 2 doors between each section that only open for a few minutes a week and record and PPV the results.

Of course GC used druggies as one of the examples, and of course I am against that as they are non-violent. Now the murders, rapists, pedophiles can all be sent there for all I care, or have anything else happen to them for that matter.

[AntonLee]

I remember that from George Carlin. . . and how he said you could get budweiser to sponsor the whole thing.  Funny, and I used to buy into it.  I don't anymore, but it's still quite funny.

[Lloyd Danforth]

As I said above.  In a free society we will have few people like Addison.  A free society and the responsibilities that come with it will not subsidize the underclass that generate people like him. Also, after a while, there will be way fewer, living, murderers than exist now.  A murderer can't replace the life he has taken, but, he can be forced to work and pay something towards any dependents the victim left behind. Private prison factories, Farms and Mines could be created where prisoners would perform labor, presumably for way below the prevailing wage and they would have to pay for their own keep, pay towards the victims and make a profit for the owner. Criminals who steal and defraud would finish their sentence after everyone is recompensed. 

libertarians figured all of this out years ago!

[Jacobus]

In a free society people are not enslaved to pay off debts.  The libertarian fantasy of "private prison factories" is one I want no part of.

[Free libertarian]

As I said above.  In a free society we will have few people like Addison.  A free society and the responsibilities that come with it will not subsidize the underclass that generate people like him. Also, after a while, there will be way fewer, living, murderers than exist now.  A murderer can't replace the life he has taken, but, he can be forced to work and pay something towards any dependents the victim left behind. Private prison factories, Farms and Mines could be created where prisoners would perform labor, presumably for way below the prevailing wage and they would have to pay for their own keep, pay towards the victims and make a profit for the owner. Criminals who steal and defraud would finish their sentence after everyone is recompensed. 

libertarians figured all of this out years ago!

If compensation is the goal...Could a rich person buy their way out of prison? Could they pay a whipping boy to go to prison for them?

Are prison farms subject to any "humane" standards?  What do you do with those who refuse to work? Grind them into dogfood?   

Prevailing wages...if they work overtime do they get time and a half?   

[Free libertarian]

I liked George Carlin's idea of fencing off those square states North Dakota, SD, etc for a total of 4 and then put all the people in those sections. Like section a) Pedophiles, b) Murders, etc. Then drop off all the drugs and guns and food in each of the areas and put only 1 or 2 doors between each section that only open for a few minutes a week and record and PPV the results.

Of course GC used druggies as one of the examples, and of course I am against that as they are non-violent. Now the murders, rapists, pedophiles can all be sent there for all I care, or have anything else happen to them for that matter.

[Free libertarian]

I liked George Carlin's idea of fencing off those square states North Dakota, SD, etc for a total of 4 and then put all the people in those sections. Like section a) Pedophiles, b) Murders, etc. Then drop off all the drugs and guns and food in each of the areas and put only 1 or 2 doors between each section that only open for a few minutes a week and record and PPV the results.

Of course GC used druggies as one of the examples, and of course I am against that as they are non-violent. Now the murders, rapists, pedophiles can all be sent there for all I care, or have anything else happen to them for that matter.

Square states ? Yeah and we could give 'em blankets with small pox and watered down liquor...oh wait a minute...sorry, thought we were talking about Indians fer a minute there!

[Lloyd Danforth]

As I said above.  In a free society we will have few people like Addison.  A free society and the responsibilities that come with it will not subsidize the underclass that generate people like him. Also, after a while, there will be way fewer, living, murderers than exist now.  A murderer can't replace the life he has taken, but, he can be forced to work and pay something towards any dependents the victim left behind. Private prison factories, Farms and Mines could be created where prisoners would perform labor, presumably for way below the prevailing wage and they would have to pay for their own keep, pay towards the victims and make a profit for the owner. Criminals who steal and defraud would finish their sentence after everyone is recompensed. 

libertarians figured all of this out years ago!

If compensation is the goal...Could a rich person buy their way out of prison? Could they pay a whipping boy to go to prison for them?

Are prison farms subject to any "humane" standards?  What do you do with those who refuse to work? Grind them into dogfood?   

Prevailing wages...if they work overtime do they get time and a half?   

I don't know why a rich person would commit a property crime, but, yes.  Anyone could agree to do someone elses recompense. You wouldn't be able to buy your way out of murder.
You work or you starve.  Nobody will care about humane conditions.  These are people 'paying' for actual crimes against individuals. The less comfortable the conditions, the cheaper the operation and the quicker recompense criminals are released.
Also, while I know the state doesn't have the right to take the life of a convicted murderer, I believe the loved ones left behind do.

[Lloyd Danforth]

I liked George Carlin's idea of fencing off those square states North Dakota, SD, etc for a total of 4 and then put all the people in those sections. Like section a) Pedophiles, b) Murders, etc. Then drop off all the drugs and guns and food in each of the areas and put only 1 or 2 doors between each section that only open for a few minutes a week and record and PPV the results.

Of course GC used druggies as one of the examples, and of course I am against that as they are non-violent. Now the murders, rapists, pedophiles can all be sent there for all I care, or have anything else happen to them for that matter.

Square states ? Yeah and we could give 'em blankets with small pox and watered down liquor...oh wait a minute...sorry, thought we were talking about Indians fer a minute there!

Not to mention how the people, (at least the non-Indian people ) in the square states might feel about such a plan.

[J’raxis 270145]

In a free society people are not enslaved to pay off debts.  The libertarian fantasy of "private prison factories" is one I want no part of.

It would all be voluntary (at least how I imagine this to work): A person wouldn't be forcibly imprisoned as they are in our current system, they'd be able to choose to work at one of these "private prison factories," or provide some other means of restitution on their own, or face social ostracism to the point where they're completely cut off from society and perhaps starve.

I'm not sure why Lloyd thinks such factories would work below prevailing wages. To operate in such a manner would simply make them so unattractive to reforming criminals that such criminals would simply find other means to pay restitution than work at these factories.