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Author Topic: nuts and bolts of secession?  (Read 1941 times)

David

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nuts and bolts of secession?
« on: December 26, 2008, 02:28 PM NHFT »

I increasingly like the idea of secession.  And while it has been talked about for a few years here, there hasn't been any real progress.
I am not interested in waiting for some existing gov't to get sick of dealing with the feds, or Concord, but rather joining with others to just do it.  Besides, existing gov'ts are not likely to be friendly to libertarian ideals.   

I think nonviolence is essential, either Satyagraha, or Duragraha.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha#Satyagraha_versus_Duragraha
http://www.aeinstein.org/organizations103a.html
http://www.embassyofheaven.com/   scroll down. 
I know a lot of libertarians look down on nonviolence, but the gov't knows how to deal with violence, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE
and of course the Browns, Waco, Ruby Ridge.  Consequently, I am not interested in joining with the gun cleaners in your glorious revolution.  I may be a fool, but I will not join such a thing. 
I see Peaceful Direct Action as a means to gain legitimacy, which is important, and a tool to deter bloodshed. 

A few things I think are important, vital in fact, to the success of secession:

Decentralized.  This will frustrate attempts by the feds to stop the secession. 
I think Panarchy,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panarchy   http://www.panarchy.org/ or Choiceocracy as I like to call it, may help, as sadly the world does not recognize individuals, but rather groups, and unfortunately, most embrace gov't not as a necessary evil, but as something they value.  It is an economics reality, the world Demands, and gov'ts Supply.  It can satisfy minarchist libertarians, and even anarchists, by simply setting up a gov't on paper that does nothing beyond represent the anarchist ideals of non authority and non domination. 
Another part of Decentralized, is the idea of many independant City-states.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_states#Sovereign_city-states
As such, I am supportive of any and all secession movements. 

Means Dictate the Ends.  Said best here.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha#Means_and_ends

Must be Ready to be Peaceful, even in the face of violence.  I am not suggesting to lay down so someone can beat me, but to find creative and nonthreatening ways to frustrate the attempts of others to do harm.  Focus anger over the oppression towards productive means. 

Location.  This is important primarily as a means to physically deter opposition.  For example, if on a hill or mountain, oppressors would not be able to easily helicopter in, or drive in, and this would require the jackboots to climb up the mountain and force unwilling prisoners down manually.  It complicates their efforts.  A lake could achieve a similar complication.  The Aztec Indians did this.  And mountains have always been useful for those wishing to evade gov't. 

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John Edward Mercier

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Re: nuts and bolts of secession?
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2008, 03:22 PM NHFT »

The PQ has been in secessionist mode for quite some time... and has worked out many of the details.
All that remains is a final majority vote of the population.

For NH to follow along two elements would be necessary. First a government willing to make treaty with the PQ on 'lands in question' (shouldn't be that hard, but you would be surprised). Second a party willing to work to a majority with long lasting political control that would have secession as a central platform.

After that NH would need to develop a sovereign fund, the PQ is roughly $300B, so a comparable in NH would be around $60B... it would develop this while internalizing its economy.

And finally it would need to achieve a majority vote... the last item the PQ is waiting for.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: nuts and bolts of secession?
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2008, 04:32 PM NHFT »

It is...
But the mechanism of secession would be roughly the same.

One needs to realize that Quebec is part of the Commonwealth of Canada, so the parables are not exactly the same.
NH has a constitution that though maybe not perfect is a basis for its political body.
It also has an armed populous that could be rousted with little notice to defend itself.
But its current treaty with outside powers is the US Constitution, so removing itself from the Union would mean replacing many of those things that the US Constitution covers.

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David

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Re: nuts and bolts of secession?
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2008, 11:25 PM NHFT »


I'm hoping PQ is not an abbreviation for Parti Québécois, because despite secessionist desires, Social Democrats are not exactly the people I want to jump in bed with.
I didn't know what PQ meant either.  I encourage any and all secession attempts, even in other nations, because it helps to set precedents, and maybe equally important, existing nations have agreed to some treaty to 'maintain' territorial sovereignty, which means in practice they pretend new nations don't exist.  It would be helpful to have trade relations with many 'new' but unrecognized nations. 
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Moebius Tripp

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Re: nuts and bolts of secession?
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2008, 12:54 AM NHFT »

Russell Means is doin' stuph in the name of the Lakota nation, though the organized, BIA* recognized tribal/national leadership isn't necessarily on board.  It is interesting to watch, as he has had a couple of ambassadors visit and grant recognition.  I believe he (and/or his group) is suing federal agencies for back rent, anywhere within the boundaries of the re-declared nation.

*Bribing Indians Always?
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: nuts and bolts of secession?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2008, 06:31 PM NHFT »


I'm hoping PQ is not an abbreviation for Parti Québécois, because despite secessionist desires, Social Democrats are not exactly the people I want to jump in bed with.
I didn't know what PQ meant either.  I encourage any and all secession attempts, even in other nations, because it helps to set precedents, and maybe equally important, existing nations have agreed to some treaty to 'maintain' territorial sovereignty, which means in practice they pretend new nations don't exist.  It would be helpful to have trade relations with many 'new' but unrecognized nations. 
I see it more as the mechanisms for independence. Though historically several models exist, it really is a matter of trial and error.
Like the PQs major failure seems to be around two problems... those that regularly travel, or do business, outside Quebec... and the desire by some to create a Quebec currency.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: nuts and bolts of secession?
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2009, 02:30 PM NHFT »

I love the idea of secession.  I have already personally seceded.  It would be great if David could start a movement of personal secession, or some kind of secession.
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David

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Re: nuts and bolts of secession?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2009, 11:27 AM NHFT »

I want something bigger.  It is a crime against humanity the way all gov'ts treat immigrants, and refugees.  Of course the insane wars, preditary gov'ts, etc. 
The problem, I want it to be non'violent. But I cannot figure out how to keep the "I'm gonna defend myself from gov't no matter what" types out so that I don't accidentally get involved in another waco or something. 
I want to do basically an expansion of the anarchy house project, with stubborn resistance and nonviolence.  Which is possible with a narrow group of people, people that are ready and willing to do it nonviolently. 
The obvious answer to ask those who are committed to violent resistance to leave is easier said than done.  When those people realize i am hostile to violence, they will simply hide like rats and pretend to be committed to nonviolence, till the gov't inevitably responds.   :-\

The best I can think of is to be incredibly visible, video, a secession youtube thingy, try to filter out the rats, etc. 
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Russell Kanning

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Re: nuts and bolts of secession?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2009, 04:33 AM NHFT »

if you sing alot of songs at your events it turns off gunslingers
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