Mike Barskey pulled over 101 east. Mike taken out of car and around back

[FTL_Ian]

IF you're going to talk to the cops:  When the pressure is on and you're having trouble thinking - pause.  You've no obligation to answer their question immediately.  This gives you some time to dig up some good comeback questions.

How about this response to, "Which of you has been drinking tonight?"

"I appreciate that you are attempting to keep the roads safe from dangerous drivers, but I really need to be on my way.  Am I free to go?"

[FTL_Ian]

I have on two occasions remembered to at least repsond to every request with: Am I required to?

Here's the thing, though.  They have in my experience always replied: "Yes".  Even when asked for my Social Security Number, a question I put extra emphasis on my automatic repsonse: "Am I required to?".

So what to do in this situation when they answer "yes"?  I talked to Brian about it today, and I hold my stance that the only thing you CAN do is comply, and accept the fact that without a recording of the discussion, you are just wasting your time.  *grumble*  the other alternative, not complying, only leads to escalated force.

If you're willing to go to jail, you could say:

"Am I required to answer your question?"
-YES YOU ARE.
"I'll be happy to answer it as soon as you show me proof of my obligation.  Otherwise, am I free to go?"

You could also try the Ridleyesque reply of, "Will you hurt me if I do not answer?".  They don't want to see themselves as monsters, so it's not likely they will answer yes to that.

[Russell Kanning]

Which is another question I have, why did he ask me for my ID, and could I have refused to show it to him?

because that is what they do
maybe

I have had varied responses to not showing them government ID

[Russell Kanning]

I have on two occasions remembered to at least repsond to every request with: Am I required to?

Here's the thing, though.  They have in my experience always replied: "Yes".  Even when asked for my Social Security Number, a question I put extra emphasis on my automatic repsonse: "Am I required to?".

So what to do in this situation when they answer "yes"?  I talked to Brian about it today, and I hold my stance that the only thing you CAN do is comply, and accept the fact that without a recording of the discussion, you are just wasting your time.  *grumble*  the other alternative, not complying, only leads to escalated force.

I have had reasonably good success when I have said something like .... I don't want to show you ID.

I agree with you .... almost every time you ask "do I have to?" ... their answer is Yes.

[Russell Kanning]

IF you're going to talk to the cops:  When the pressure is on and you're having trouble thinking - pause.  You've no obligation to answer their question immediately.

except when they expect you to ... take a seat!!! .... promptly  

[Russell Kanning]

You could also try the Ridleyesque reply of, "Will you hurt me if I do not answer?".  They don't want to see themselves as monsters, so it's not likely they will answer yes to that.

I also ask them "What will you do if I don't do _____?"

[cynthia]

This role-playing idea may be one of the most useful activist ideas out there. We could even announce it publicly, marketing it might generate interest and awareness of the FSP or Liberty in general.  Hmmm, who would play the jack-booted swine and Men-in-Black robes? Know any former cops and/or lawyers in the movement? Let's do this on Sundays, maybe every other week. We could change locations or have them centrally located. I'm very interested in this, mostly b/c it sounds like fun theater!

[William]

From what I gathered from the phone calls, the open container tickets grew solely out of what y'all told them. Politely engaging in witty banter about brands of beer led directly to a ticket.

Here's a question for everyone. When I was sitting in the passenger seat with the door open, and my feet on the ground outside, the second cop asked me "Which of you has been drinking tonight?"

What would a non-compliant answer have been?

I'm not required to answer that question.

[William]

From my experiences with pullovers, sometimes with a whole lot at stake.

The cop makes a decision about how things are likely to go in the first 10 seconds of interacting with you. They are concerned if they are in a dangerous situation first off, especially at night. Second they are interested in if they are going to upgrade the pullover into a vehicle search for "contraband", or outstanding warrants arrest.

I have to say that the balance to be struck is up to the individual to make their best call. I have many times driven away from the situation when they could have arrested me.

The balance of showing the cop you aren't trouble for them vs. them realizing they aren't going to be able to walk all over you.

Things you do that are out of the ordinary will get them wondering WTF they are dealing with.

If you have an drivers license from another state, you can tell them you are visiting a friend. But, you have to have your lie figured out first, because they are experienced in tripping you up in the conversation. They only have access to the information in their system and if your story matches that it is pretty much the end of it.

Videotaping the situation can lead to things getting worse. It is somewhat confrontational. Also they lose the ability to use their discretion on what to charge you with. Although you lose some of that when the other cops show up.

Anyway glad ya'll are ok.

This is an incredible post, TS, and I really appreciate all the information and wisdom contained within, especially what I italicized above. I do have an out of state license, and informed the cop that I live in both NH and HI, and that HI is my legal address. Which is another question I have, why did he ask me for my ID, and could I have refused to show it to him?

You certainly could have. The question is did you want to escalate the situation further? If you had started out saying nothing, it might have been viable but my experience is that moving from cooperative to non-cooperative is more difficult than starting out that way.

[www]

I'm trying to find info on speed limits. Here is one article:

http://www.motorists.org/speedlimits/home/do-speed-limits-matter/

"Do speed limits matter? Yes they do. Today they generate millions of pointless traffic tickets and billions of dollars of undeserved insurance surcharges, disrupt traffic flow, increase congestion, and have created a siege mentality among those who frequently use our public highways."

People tend to drive the same speed within 1-2 mph regardless of the speed limit - in 1973 in states with a 75 mph limit 90% stayed within the limit. In states with a 70 mph limit, 80% "obeyed", in states with a 65 mph limit 60 to 70% complied, and in New York, in 1994, only 4% complied with the 55 mph limit.

On the Autobahn the average speed is 80 mph, and there are far fewer accidents. The article says the average speed in the US is 70, but I know for a fact that on Long Island the average speed for light traffic is also 80 mph.

From this study: http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/11/the-boy-who-cri.html

I like this comment - "If speeding is dangerous, why do all the cop cars I see drive 15-40mph over the posted speed limit?"

Someone also pointed out that the numbers, out of 988 drivers, 21% think it is safe to go 5 mph over the limit, 43% 10 mph over, and 36% 20 mph over, add up to 100% - no one thinks that to be safe you have to keep to the speed limit. That, apparently, is an unintended consequence of artificially lowering the speed limit to 55 mph for 13 years.

From another article, I liked the introduction, "For those of you who never have actually been in a car, some researchers have now revealed the obvious: most drivers are comfortable ignoring the speed limit."

Nowhere do you ever see actual speeds listed. All of those real time traffic data sites show speeds of over 50, under 25, etc., but never that the average is actually, say 79 mph. It is universally held that it would upset the public to find out that anyone ever actually exceeded the speed limit, and DOT's across the country prohibit showing any higher speeds. http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2007/02/google-maps-shows-real-time-traffic.html and http://traffic.yahoo.com/traffic for example.

Here is an article from the Atlantic. Why stop signs and speed limits endanger Americans

"Speed limits in the U.S. are perhaps a more severe safety hazard than stop signs."

Here is a list of 170 speed traps in New Hampshire, and no surprise, Candia 101 is included, "anywhere between exits 4 and 2, most often westbound."

[David]

All great advice.  I am a huge fan of simplicity and de-escalating tension.  I like Mtporcupine3's and Tom Sawyers suggestions in particular.  You do not have to self incriminate.  While back after a copwatch, the cops tried to get me to admit to riding on the sidewalk (illegal in Keene), I told them I cannot answer the question.  Short, sweet, and not confrontational.  I think it is unwise to lie, too hard to keep the lies straight, and prolly not a good thing to do anyway.  I get nervous with cops, so even though I shouldn't talk to cops, I do anyway.  But about the weather, or some other completely non relevant subject to anything they might actually be interested in. 

Alex Free Market, the guy you are writing about posts here from time to time, but I cannot remember his name or online name at the moment. 

[KBCraig]

On another forum, this is how I responded to a "what to say to police" query:

Alright all you, I'm-not-a-lawyers. Good discussion. I'd like to get to the meat of this for a moment.
What's wrong with:
Cop: "Sir, Wait right there. Can I talk to you for a moment?"
Me: "Sir, am I under arrest?"
Cop: "Well, no but ..."
Me: "Am I being detained?"
Cop: "Uh, no, but ..."
Me: "Good day sir."

No questioning his RAS, PC, etc. No rudeness. No sprinting.

While avoiding rudeness and debate is good, you err in assuming the conversation would go as you've outlined above.

More likely:
Cop: "Sir, Wait right there. Can I talk to you for a moment?"
You: "Sir, am I under arrest?"
Cop: "Keep your hands where I can see them!"
You: "Am I being detained?"
Cop: "I need to see your ID."
You: "...ummm, I don't have to..."
Cop: "Have you been drinking tonight?"
You: "No!"
Cop: "Where are you coming from?"
You: "I'd rather not answ...."
Cop: "Do you have a license to carry a handgun?"
You: "I don't need a license to open..."
Cop: "What are you, some kind of lawyer?"
You: "No, I just... "
Cop: "Step over here and put your hands behind your head."
You: "Am I under arrest?"
Cop: "At this time, I'm going to remove your handgun for your safety."
You: (thinking): "My safety?"
You: "Am I free to leave?"
Cop: "You don't have anything else I need to be concerned with, do you? No knives, needles, hand grenades, nuclear bombs, illegal substances?"
You: (thinking): "WTF? Did he just ask if I had a nuclear bomb?"
You: Ummmm, no sir?
Cop: "Place your hands right here on the hood, I'll be right back." (as he takes your pistol and ID and call them in for wants and warrants.
You: (thinking): "WTF just happened?"

Do not ever assume that you can best a street cop with superior knowledge, wit or logic. By temperament, experience, and training, they will deflect all your questions while asking their own. They will seem nonsensical to the honest person, and the more honest and logical you are, the more it will throw you off your game.

This is Street Patrol 101. A rookie with four weeks under an FTO has dealt with more lying sociopaths than the average Middle Class American will encounter in a lifetime. That's just life down on the gritty reality of the streets. Unless you happen to be one of the good and honest people who grew up street-wary in bad circumstances (like my wife), or you've dealt with this professionally (cop, corrections, paramedic, ER, mental health, convenience store clerk, etc.), chances are that you really aren't prepared to be baffled in this way.

The more you prepare these scripts in your head, the less likely they are to play out as you planned.

I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic. We should all prepare for these encounters, but it's a mistake to believe that those we encounter would respond as we would. If that were the case, there would be no encounter to start with.

[Dave Ridley]

i like kb's msg above and consider it accurate based on experience.

if you decide to talk , ed naile from the coalition of NH taxpayers suggests making no statements, ending all sentences with question marks.  it's hard but we can practice it at any taproom tuesday.

if you start being completely silent, you should probably be willing to keep it up indefinitely...and that is hard.

[Dave Ridley]

the roleplaying idea is stellar and i look forward to taping and airing some of the better "skits"

i find that i suck at playing the cop

[Kat Kanning]

I've been totally silent during a traffic stop.  It was back when I lived in CA.  The cop seemed to think it was really weird, but didn't get mad about it.