Mike Barskey pulled over 101 east. Mike taken out of car and around back

[Russell Kanning]

it makes me sad when the thugs get us to study their evil laws

[MaineShark]

it makes me sad when the thugs get us to study their evil laws

Can't defeat them without understanding how they think.

Sort of like how doctors have to study diseases, in order to cure their patients.

Just always think of it that way...

Joe

[ColdSoul]

I think the role playing is a VERY good idea, there is no way you can deal with these situations perfect every time, but role playing will help a lot of people deal with these situations a lot better than they would otherwise.

I am certified in PC 832 Laws of Arrest and would gladly participate on both sides of the role playing if we get this going!

[William]

"Disobeying an officer" relates to physical actions, like not leaving a crime scene if ordered.  They cannot use it to interrogate you.  If they're going to arrest you on that, they were going to arrest you anyway.  I can't imagine them trying to take that to trial, and swearing under oath that they made a blatantly-false arrest.

What's the RSA that says that a cop can only use "disobeying an officer" for a physical action, and not for interrogating me?

Also, what are some resources some of you use to look up these RSAs? I'd also like to learn how to find out what the penalties are for not following different kinds of laws.

Legalese isn't english. They can't tell you to strip and stand on your head and then arrest you for disobeying an officer when you don't.

[grasshopper]

   Question
  if a Police oficer makes a law up, isn't that a felony?  I thought the legislature made laws?
  There might be a "remady" Section after the RSA or toward the bottom of the page.

[FTL_Ian]

Someone should email Bradley J. - he's already expressed an interest in helping with such roleplaying.

[Daien]

Here's a question for everyone. When I was sitting in the passenger seat with the door open, and my feet on the ground outside, the second cop asked me "Which of you has been drinking tonight?"

What would a non-compliant answer have been?

All joking, and discussion about the commercial term passenger aside:

-Officer, I recognise your contact. Before I consent to a detention can you please tell me the specific and articulable fact for this attempted detention?
-Hello officer, can you please tell me the probable cause for your contact?
-Officer, what did you see, hear, feel, taste or smell that gave you a reasonable suspicion that either of his has been drinking?
-Officer, before I answer any question, can you please tell me your name and identify yourself? (name and identity are not the same).
-Is this a Constitutional stop/contact?
-Hello officer, why do you think you need to talk to me? Do you have a reasonable suspicion that I have committed or am about to commit a crime?
-Thank you for asking, officer, but I do not consent to any search seizure, interrogation or detention. May I terminate this contact?

If you can't remember any of this or think of any intelligent, polite, deflecting question: Silence.

If he persists or gives you a hard time: I do not consent to any search, seizure, interrogation or detention. May I terminate this contact now? or simply: Am I under arrest? May I terminate this contact now?

MTP3, this is well thought out and written, and informative; thank you so much. These are the things that I need to become aware of in order to begin to change my responses.

[Russell Kanning]

it makes me sad when the thugs get us to study their evil laws

Can't defeat them without understanding how they think.
Sort of like how doctors have to study diseases, in order to cure their patients.

so how much of their junk should you have to read?
commie manifestos
un rules
tax laws

I don't think doctors should study disease ... they should study health

I prefer to be naive in the ways of the world for the most part. You are effected by what you dwell on.

[Daien]

why did he ask me for my ID, and could I have refused to show it to him?

If you are in a vehicle they can ask for your id for the purpose of establishing ownership of the vehicle, so I do not see any reason for requiring it if that has already been established.

Answer to part one: Cops are always going to ask for ID, just as anglers are always going to throw their line in the water, and for the same reason: They're fishing! No line in the water, no fish.

Answer to part two: Trick question. There is a difference between refusing and not consenting. Learn the difference and don't let yourself be in a position of being accused of refusing.

As a rule, I would not consent to identifying myself unless convinced that I was required to or that I would be subjected to arrest or bodily harm otherwise. And why not ask? "Am I required to show ID? What law binds me to such an obligation? What happens if I don't?"

The problem in this case is that the officer has already established that a "crime" or infraction has taken place. The guest ["passenger"] volunteered the fact that there was an open container in the car. Once this line is crossed, there is "probably cause", and not consenting to the request for ID is only asking for (more) trouble.

Again, MTP3, this is informative and helpful information. I'm planning on collating all that everyone has suggested in order to be better educated and prepared. I'm really grateful to everyone for all the information and suggestions, and very impressed with the solidarity and support everyone receives. Thanks folks.

[Daien]

IF you're going to talk to the cops:  When the pressure is on and you're having trouble thinking - pause.  You've no obligation to answer their question immediately.  This gives you some time to dig up some good comeback questions.

How about this response to, "Which of you has been drinking tonight?"

"I appreciate that you are attempting to keep the roads safe from dangerous drivers, but I really need to be on my way.  Am I free to go?"

Thanks, Ian, more good information.

I have on two occasions remembered to at least repsond to every request with: Am I required to?

Here's the thing, though.  They have in my experience always replied: "Yes".  Even when asked for my Social Security Number, a question I put extra emphasis on my automatic repsonse: "Am I required to?".

So what to do in this situation when they answer "yes"?  I talked to Brian about it today, and I hold my stance that the only thing you CAN do is comply, and accept the fact that without a recording of the discussion, you are just wasting your time.  *grumble*  the other alternative, not complying, only leads to escalated force.

If you're willing to go to jail, you could say:

"Am I required to answer your question?"
-YES YOU ARE.
"I'll be happy to answer it as soon as you show me proof of my obligation.  Otherwise, am I free to go?"

You could also try the Ridleyesque reply of, "Will you hurt me if I do not answer?".  They don't want to see themselves as monsters, so it's not likely they will answer yes to that.

More good information. And for a bit of levity, I'm not sure I could ask Ridley's question with a straight face, seeing as I do delve into the bdsm arena from time to time. I'm just usually on the giving end. 

[Daien]

Which is another question I have, why did he ask me for my ID, and could I have refused to show it to him?

because that is what they do
maybe

I have had varied responses to not showing them government ID

As I've heard you relate. Thanks, Russell, I always appreciate your insight.

[MaineShark]

so how much of their junk should you have to read?

You shouldn't have to read any of it

I can't remember who said it, but someone defined the degree of civilization in a society as how long a theoretical alien could walk around without being accosted for violating some rule/regulation/law/whatever.  In a civilized society, there wouldn't be any need to read any rules and nonsense, because as long as you treated people decently, you would never run into problems.  I agree with Gandhi, though: Western civilization would be a very good idea...

I don't think doctors should study disease ... they should study health

That works great when you have a healthy patient, and you want to keep your patient healthy.

Unfortunately, the patient (American society) is pretty sick, and the diseases need to be cured, first.  So we all need to live healthy, to set a good example, and some of us do need to understand the disease, so we can help get the patient to the point where health becomes possible.

I prefer to be naive in the ways of the world for the most part. You are effected by what you dwell on.

Indeed.  I'd sleep much better if I didn't know some of the things I know.  But such is life, I suppose.  Understanding the evil that exists, without becoming part of it, requires constant dedication.  It's the difference between knowing the law, and becoming a lawyer.  There are lots of well-meaning folks who cross that line, thinking they will "do some good," but they end up becoming part of the evil system...

I like knowing "their" language, so I can tell them bits of the truth in words they can actually understand, until they learn enough of "our" language to talk to us directly.  Until they get to that tipping-point, they just can't grasp what we're telling them, because we aren't speaking the same language.

Joe

[Daien]

From what I gathered from the phone calls, the open container tickets grew solely out of what y'all told them. Politely engaging in witty banter about brands of beer led directly to a ticket.

Here's a question for everyone. When I was sitting in the passenger seat with the door open, and my feet on the ground outside, the second cop asked me "Which of you has been drinking tonight?"

What would a non-compliant answer have been?

William, I really want to thank you for the conversation we had NYE at Max's. As you probably recall, I started off being apprehensive of what I viewed as 'inflamatory' behavior on your part. As you continued to relate your experiences, I saw my viewpoint begin to change, and understood that I really needed to be better educated on the law and my rights. Then this happened, and the opportunity is here. Thanks, I'm looking forward to more conversations with you about this topic.

I'm not required to answer that question.

[Daien]

You certainly could have. The question is did you want to escalate the situation further? If you had started out saying nothing, it might have been viable but my experience is that moving from cooperative to non-cooperative is more difficult than starting out that way.

Again, more great information, and thank you.

[Mike Barskey]

What would a non-compliant answer have been?

I'm not required to answer that question.

Well done!