What would be ideal act of civil dis in NH?

[Russell Kanning]

Caleb told me I should try to tunnel out when I was in jail. I thought that was a brilliant idea, but I didn't have the guts to do it last time. I was having too much fun reading and getting/sending letters.
If I was put in a cell with nothing to do, I would start digging at the cement. At least they would know I want out.
When someone gets jailed in Keene, we should ramp up the breakout stuff. I am not quite sure what I can do for Lauren yet.

[Michael Fisher]

On this topic, those in prisons and jails are our greatest assets. We should find a way to recruit them.

[KBCraig]

On this topic, those in prisons and jails are our greatest assets. We should find a way to recruit them.

Please don't assume they're all innocent victims of misguided and over-reaching laws. There are a substantial number who would not be welcome in the movement.

[Michael Fisher]

On this topic, those in prisons and jails are our greatest assets. We should find a way to recruit them.

Please don't assume they're all innocent victims of misguided and over-reaching laws. There are a substantial number who would not be welcome in the movement.

I disagree. The vast majority of people imprisoned have victimized no one.

[KBCraig]

On this topic, those in prisons and jails are our greatest assets. We should find a way to recruit them.

Please don't assume they're all innocent victims of misguided and over-reaching laws. There are a substantial number who would not be welcome in the movement.

I disagree. The vast majority of people imprisoned have victimized no one.

You're not disagreeing with what I said; I didn't say anything about those who have victimized no one (which is not a "vast majority", by any stretch).

I said there are a substantial number of people in prison who have no place here, because they believe in initiating violence to have their way, victimizing innocents for their own pleasure, initiating fraud and theft, etc. Eliminating laws against victimless crimes would not change these men into saints.

Maybe your 15 years of experience in a correctional environment has taught you something different.

[Dave Ridley]

i'm with kb on this...lotta bad guys in the system.   but obviously some good ones too.

[Dave Ridley]

ok that is a great idea actually...tunnelling...

maybe meeting outside a prison gate and starting to dig a hole would be the answer LOL

[Michael Fisher]

Sorry, but my (relatively little) experience is completely the opposite of yours. All I've witnessed throughout the court convictions I've watched are primarily victimless "criminals." In fact, almost all of them were victimless "criminals."

"Victimizers" are also created by the system creating black markets (which cannot nonviolently enforce contracts) in various goods and services and by its general blurring of the line between right and wrong.

I ask that you do not look at criminals as bad people. Christians should know that we are all equally evil. There is not one righteous man -- no, not even one.

Instead of making excuses for people, realize that you, too, are capable of everything each criminal has done. You will be much quicker to forgive and see them as potential strong allies and friends. Prisoners truly need friends like that, given the rampant unforgiveness in today's world, as well as the nonsensical prisoner stereotypes. ("I'm not like THAT guy... THAT guy is the scum of the Earth!")

I repeat that all prisoners are great potential allies to the cause of liberty -- perhaps much moreso than the typical person who lives in the grey area of life.

[Pat K]

No Mike I do not consider myself evil. If you think murders are just like every one else than you are spitting on their victims. If you want to hang around with truely evil people go ahead, but don't bring them around me.

[KBCraig]

"Victimizers" are also created by the system creating black markets (which cannot nonviolently enforce contracts) in various goods and services and by its general blurring of the line between right and wrong.

???

Aren't you a founder of the Freedom Friends Tuath? Isn't the the Tuath a "black market" tort system? Do you believe the Tuath cannot enforce contracts between members without resorting to violence? Don't you support the idea that people can survive just fine with little or no government? Don't you believe that people can settle their differences peacefully, completely outside civil law? Do you believe that illegitimate laws can force people into initiating violence?

I ask that you do not look at criminals as bad people.

I don't look at "criminals" as bad people. You're a criminal -- the "Outlaw Manicurist". Russell is a criminal -- the "Unidentified Flying Objector". Lauren is a criminal -- the "Peacefully Reading A Book On A Porch" silent protestor. You're all good people, even though you're "criminals" in the eyes of the law. I salute you all, laws be damned.

I look at bad people as bad people. And, like it or not, jails and prisons are full of bad people. Many of them are sociopaths who are quite adept at manipulating the emotions of everyone with whom they come into contact. To their mothers, they're saints. To their homeys, they're the baddest asses on the compound. To the women penpals they deceive, they're righteous victims, whose legal defense fund is more important than new shoes for the women's kids. To the chapel volunteers, they're changed men who were caught in a bad situation, but Now They Know Better. 

When I said "substantial number", that's based on seeing what these men actually did. Not the story they told someone who spent a weekend in the holding cell with them. Not what they tell the chapel volunteer, or their mothers, or the women who send them money. Quite often, there is background information in their files that is not used to convict them. Sometimes those details are plea-bargained away; sometimes there are technical problems with the case, so they are convicted of lesser charges. But, the fact remains that they did "it", whatever "it" happens to be.

Just last week, I had calls from two different unit officers, asking me to look up the charges on the same inmate. He was boasting what a baaaaadass drug dealer he was, how he ruled the streets, etc. That raised red flags for these experienced officers, so they called me for the scoop. The fellow in question had no history of drugs. He was sentenced to 270 months for producing and distributing child pornography. He didn't just film it, he participated in it, taping himself (and others) raping dozens of children under the age of 10, then selling the videos online.

But if you'd encountered him in jail while locked up over the weekend for civil disobedience, he'd have sung you a tale of woe about how he was just an entrepeneur in an unapproved industry. 

Are there prisoners serving absurdly long sentence for things that should not even be crimes? Absolutely! If it was up to me, I'd turn them all loose. But as I said earlier, a substantial number of people who are convicted of "victimless crimes" are themselves victimizers, using force, fraud, and coercion.

Instead of making excuses for people, realize that you, too, are capable of everything each criminal has done. You will be much quicker to forgive and see them as potential strong allies and friends.

In a word: no. I'm not capable of most of what these men have done.

Am I capable of stealing or dealing drugs to keep my family from starving? Yes. Am I capable of raping and beating to death a 72 year old widow for the $7 in her purse? Absolutely not! (And yes, that is a real example that I've seen.) Perhaps you'd prefer the one who gave his 7 year old niece gonorrhea. Or the nursing home attendant who sexually molested and physically abused patients, some to the point of death. How about the millionaire Texas Attorney General who defrauded banks for loans, while claiming indigence to the court while under indictment for personally profiting from the "Big Tobacco" settlement? The man who just won re-election to a city council in Louisiana, after serving a prison term for using that same office to demand bribes?

Each of us, suffering from human nature, has the potential for evil. But some are just plain evil, and unapologetic about it.

I repeat that all prisoners are great potential allies to the cause of liberty -- perhaps much moreso than the typical person who lives in the grey area of life.

That is simply silly. Having worked personally with thousands of prison inmates over the last 15 years, I will tell you that many of them are potential allies. Many are unjustly convicted of unjust laws. But "all prisoners are great potential allies to the cause of liberty"? Nonsense! The rate of sociopathy in prison populations is much higher than in the population at large; I've seen studies putting the number as high as 30%, and the lower limit is around 12%; compare that to about 3% of men in the general population. Sociopaths seek only one freedom: the freedom to do whatever they want, no matter the cost to anyone else.

I'm the farthest thing from a law-and-order hardass. But the notion that everyone behind bars is an ally of the freedom movement is just plain silly. Referring back to our discussions about pacifism and Christianity, a goodly number of them would love to encounter pacifists: easier pickings. Not unlike the killer at the Amish school.

Trust experience over wishful thinking.

Kevin

[Russell Kanning]

I gotta agree with Mike. I don't think I have the right to imprison other people, so I would work to set the captives free. I could truly tell everyone I met in jail that I thought they should be free. Since I want everyone to be free, I think everyone can also be part of the freedom movement.

[Pat K]

  great you can all sit around sing songs and when you go sleep at night they will slit your throat.

[Roycerson]

ok that is a great idea actually...tunnelling...

Don't forget to whistle {greatescape.wav}

After a couple solid hours of repetitive whistling they just might help you dig to get you to shut up.

[Russell Kanning]

nah .... some guys sing/yell for hours at a time and all it does is make the guards mad.

[FTL_Ian]

Does the justice system need to be replaced with voluntary alternatives?  Should restitution be more prevalent?

Yes and yes.

Are all people in prison potential allies?  Hell no.  I want nothing to do with violent thugs whether they be a murderer or someone who orders murders (a politician). 

KBCraig is right on the money here.