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Author Topic: There is no such thing as a libertarian government  (Read 1176 times)

memenode

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There is no such thing as a libertarian government
« on: January 04, 2009, 11:56 PM NHFT »

Ok, let me rattle some feathers.

Originally, libertarian was someone who believes in liberty, hence the name. A person cannot have true liberty and be initiated or threatened force or fraud against. All government as we know it, no matter how minimal, is coercive. Therefore "libertarian government" is an oxymoron. And speaking of feather rattling, to begin thinking otherwise is to betray yourself and others who still believed in true liberty.

Free State Project will not be a true success so long as NH has a government. What if some people's fears come true and in 2010 the governments of the world start preparing for the world war? Judging from history only something spectacularly unique and epically revolutionary can change the course of the masses of individuals to the point at which the WW3 will become harder or even impossible to wage. That revolutionary thing is to have a place on Earth to point to where there is no government and there is peace, order and prosperity: New Hampshire.

Because government is violence legitimized. I can pay thousands of dollars in 2010 here in Europe, which could very well be in shambles by 2010, throwing out ads and propaganda that tells people that they have been lied to for their whole lives, that the governments which are now convincing them that more bloodshed is necessary are nothing but private companies who decided to rob and kill. Some will listen, but the impact will never be as powerful as it would be if my propaganda would also say something like "And now we have a proof. There is a place on Earth where there is no government, and there is prosperity, order and peace: New Hampshire. Go and look it up yourself." No more arguments are needed.

No more arguments.

Remaining minarchists, stop making excuses. It really matters. It matters freaking a lot. If there is merely a minarchist government left in NH, ALL of its potential power is for naught. USA already had something like a minimal government. Who do you think is gonna be convinced because NH is like USA used to be in the beginning, when they watch USA today? It doesn't work. NH must be without government. All of NH population must be convinced that government is violence and that it is not legitimate. There is NO other way.

Now if you wanna flame me for ranting, go on. I don't care. But whatever you say, I don't think I'll be able to tolerate association with a movement who still wants a little violence left, especially when the stakes are this high.

Cheers
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Lumpy

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Re: There is no such thing as a libertarian government
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2009, 12:05 AM NHFT »

Ok, let me rattle some feathers.

Originally, libertarian was someone who believes in liberty, hence the name. A person cannot have true liberty and be initiated or threatened force or fraud against. All government as we know it, no matter how minimal, is coercive. Therefore "libertarian government" is an oxymoron. And speaking of feather rattling, to begin thinking otherwise is to betray yourself and others who still believed in true liberty.

Free State Project will not be a true success so long as NH has a government. What if some people's fears come true and in 2010 the governments of the world start preparing for the world war? Judging from history only something spectacularly unique and epically revolutionary can change the course of the masses of individuals to the point at which the WW3 will become harder or even impossible to wage. That revolutionary thing is to have a place on Earth to point to where there is no government and there is peace, order and prosperity: New Hampshire.

Because government is violence legitimized. I can pay thousands of dollars in 2010 here in Europe, which could very well be in shambles by 2010, throwing out ads and propaganda that tells people that they have been lied to for their whole lives, that the governments which are now convincing them that more bloodshed is necessary are nothing but private companies who decided to rob and kill. Some will listen, but the impact will never be as powerful as it would be if my propaganda would also say something like "And now we have a proof. There is a place on Earth where there is no government, and there is prosperity, order and peace: New Hampshire. Go and look it up yourself." No more arguments are needed.

No more arguments.

Remaining minarchists, stop making excuses. It really matters. It matters freaking a lot. If there is merely a minarchist government left in NH, ALL of its potential power is for naught. USA already had something like a minimal government. Who do you think is gonna be convinced because NH is like USA used to be in the beginning, when they watch USA today? It doesn't work. NH must be without government. All of NH population must be convinced that government is violence and that it is not legitimate. There is NO other way.

Now if you wanna flame me for ranting, go on. I don't care. But whatever you say, I don't think I'll be able to tolerate association with a movement who still wants a little violence left, especially when the stakes are this high.

Cheers
Sweet rant.
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Kat Kanning

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Re: There is no such thing as a libertarian government
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2009, 04:45 AM NHFT »

The title said it all.
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dalebert

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Re: There is no such thing as a libertarian government
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2009, 01:13 PM NHFT »

I'm more optimistic than you. Every single person doesn't have to be on board. We just need a significant chunk disobeying enough that it throws a wrench in the works. Anarchy doesn't require 100% agreement, but authoritarian government does require near 100% obedience to keep functioning.
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Lumpy

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Re: There is no such thing as a libertarian government
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2009, 09:46 PM NHFT »

I'm more optimistic than you. Every single person doesn't have to be on board. We just need a significant chunk disobeying enough that it throws a wrench in the works. Anarchy doesn't require 100% agreement, but authoritarian government does require near 100% obedience to keep functioning.

That is why I love Dale.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: There is no such thing as a libertarian government
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2009, 10:08 PM NHFT »

I would consider the Free State Project to be wildly successful if we had 20,000 movers by 2010 and half the government we presently do. If the feds were gone that would be a dream come true. If we had no government in a few years the whole rotten empire would be crumbling by then and noone would even think about little ol' NH. :)

Maybe also a chicken in every pot and one of Dale's muffins.
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error

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Re: There is no such thing as a libertarian government
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2009, 11:05 PM NHFT »

The way things are going, I'll consider it wildly successful if 20,000 of us are still alive and not in concentration camps, er, "refugee camps," er, whatever they wind up calling them.
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dalebert

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Re: There is no such thing as a libertarian government
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2009, 12:26 AM NHFT »

The way things are going, I'll consider it wildly successful if 20,000 of us are still alive and not in concentration camps, er, "refugee camps," er, whatever they wind up calling them.

That makes me shudder. It's sounding less far-fetched every day as I watch what's going on.
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memenode

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Re: There is no such thing as a libertarian government
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2009, 02:49 PM NHFT »

I agree Dale, it's gonna require only a "critical mass", or I would guess, the action takers, to be convinced. So they are a priority, but the ideal is to convince everyone.

And considering that the whole goal of the FSP is to move 20 000 people, of course it's gonna be a success, from that limited perspective, if that happens, but my goal goes farther and it will not be reached until there is a place on Earth where there is no organization whose violence is considered legitimate by most people.

I do not condone minarchism. I will never condone minarchism, for the exactly the same reason I don't condone even the worst kinds of statism such as fascism and ideologies like marxist leninism.

Small government = less violence = some violence is fine.

But violence breeds violence so less violence is inevitably gonna lead to more and more violence. You can't legitimize a little of it without expecting more of it.

No government = no violence

Here is a great story I was linked to by Kevin Dean (who says he got it from Lauren, possibly on this forum): My Son: Klan Reformer.

It completely nails this issue. I put it on digg.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 02:57 PM NHFT by gu3st »
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Russell Kanning

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Re: There is no such thing as a libertarian government
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2009, 10:33 PM NHFT »

The way things are going, I'll consider it wildly successful if 20,000 of us are still alive and not in concentration camps, er, "refugee camps," er, whatever they wind up calling them.

That makes me shudder. It's sounding less far-fetched every day as I watch what's going on.

actually things look better and better to me each day
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