Buying and selling gold and silver [Price Update: Fri 05/08 -- End of Thread]

[cxxguy]

I am going to be trying cover some living expenses by importing silver and gold, and retailing them.

The advantage of dealing with me instead of dealing with the net, is that I go through the hassle of ordering, the pain of waiting, and the stress if wondering "where the hell is my metal?".  You, on the other hand, have the luxury of selling your FiRNs at a fair price, and getting real money for them, hand over hand, with nothing to wonder or worry about.

My current stock includes generic 1oz silver rounds, silver American Eagles, Canadian Maple Leaves, and gold Krugerrands.

I'm in the process of lifting myself by my own bootstraps, so I will be best able to satisfy your more moderate gold and silver fevers at this time.  Of course, if you don't mind the wait and just want to avoid leaving a paper trail, I am happy to act as an agent.

[margomaps]

Define moderate in terms of # of rounds.  And what kind of premium over spot are you charging?   

[doobie]

I'm looking for about 20-25 oz of silver per month.  How much are your current rates?

[K. Darien Freeheart]

Define moderate in terms of # of rounds.  And what kind of premium over spot are you charging?

This.

[cxxguy]

Currently, I'm better set for gold than silver, which is unfortunate, because I suspect that there will be more interest in silver than in gold. But over time that should be adjustable.

Currently, I've got about 150 generic silver rounds, 50 Eagles, a few silver Buffalos, and about half a roll of maples in the silver department.

Also, a little over a pound of Gold Krugs, all 1oz.

All the silver is in tubes, except for 10 of the eagles, which are in individual plastic holders.  The Krugs I bought one at a time, so they're less organized, but they're in fine shape.

Because of limited stock, I'd be interested in creative arrangements.  For example, if I am correct that silver moves faster than gold, there might be somebody who wants to take advantage of the rare opportunity to put their silver to work, by lending me silver, taking gold as collateral, at spot ratio, and getting back a little more silver than they gave when the time comes.

Of course, I could be completely wrong, and reordering gold instead of silver next week so we shall see.  My ratio is too uneven to work such a deal in the other direction.

Here is a snapshot of my  suppliers' structure:

Code Select Expand


     symbol      | symbol |  price   |    melt    |  premium  |                        text                       
-----------------+--------+----------+------------+-----------+----------------------------------------------------
SIB999:0100:CMX | ag     |  1566.00 | 1441.00000 | 125.00000 | Silver - Bullion.999pure[Bar]-CMX (100.00 oz.)
SIB999:0100     | ag     |  1561.00 | 1441.00000 | 120.00000 | Silver - Bullion.999pure[Bars]- (100.00 oz.)
SIB999:0010:CMX | ag     |   159.10 |  144.10000 |  15.00000 | Silver - Bullion.999pure[Bar]-CMX (10.00 oz.)
SIAE001         | ag     |    18.51 |   14.41000 |   4.10000 | American Eagle Silver Coin (1.00 oz.)
SIAP001         | ag     |    18.16 |   14.41000 |   3.75000 | Austrian Silver Philharmonic Coin(1.00 oz.)
SIB999:0001:CMX | ag     |    15.91 | 14.4100000 | 1.5000000 | Silver - Bullion.999pure[Bar]-CMX (1.00 oz.)
SIB999:0001     | ag     |    15.66 |   14.41000 |   1.25000 | Silver - Bullion .999pure[Bars/Rounds] (1.00 oz.)
GCBB:3215:CMX   | au     | 32061.29 | 31526.2900 |  535.0000 | Gold - Bullion Bar *Kilo*.9999Pure-CMX (32.15 oz.)
GCBB:1000:CMX   | au     | 10116.00 |  9806.0000 |  310.0000 | Bullion Gold Bar .999 Pure - CMX (10.00 oz.)
GCBB:0321:CMX   | au     |  3267.53 |  3157.5320 |  109.9980 | Bullion 100g Gold Bar .999+Pure-CMX (3.22 oz.)
GCAE025         | au     |   320.15 |   245.1500 |   75.0000 | American Eagle Gold Coin (0.25 oz.)
GCCP100         | au     |  1045.60 |   980.6000 |   65.0000 | Chinese Panda Gold Coin(1.00 oz.)
GCAK0100        | au     |  1045.60 |   980.6000 |   65.0000 | Australian Kangaroo Gold Coin(1.00 oz.)
GCAE100         | au     |  1040.60 |   980.6000 |   60.0000 | American Eagle Gold Coin (1.00 oz.)
GCAP100         | au     |  1040.60 |   980.6000 |   60.0000 | Austrian Philharmonic Gold Coin(1.00 oz.)
GCCM100         | au     |  1035.60 |   980.6000 |   55.0000 | Canadian Maple Gold Coin (1.00 oz.)
GCSK100         | au     |  1035.60 |   980.6000 |   55.0000 | S. African Krugerrand Gold Coin (1.00 oz.)
GCBB:0100:CMX   | au     |  1020.60 |   980.6000 |   40.0000 | Bullion Gold Bar .999+Pure-CMX (1.00 oz.)
(18 rows)


Shipping and handling comes to about $20 on 100 rounds, including insurance.  It's not that much more on 500 rounds, which is why I think this  may be economically efficient, especially for small buyers, as you would pay about $1 per round if you ordered them 20 at a time.

And last but not least, there is me.  I haven't figured out how to price the service (I should note that this is not how I would discuss this issue on craigslist, but theres' nobody here but us Porcs and a half dozen FBI agents with bigger fish to fry ;->  My first thought is about a 5% markup.  I truly have no idea what Porcs are used to paying by the time they have silver in their hands, since every retail establishment I've ever walked into has struck me as terribly pricey.  I suspect Porcs tend to be more sophisticated than your average silver buyers.

I'm still at the stage where I wander into jewelers and coin dealers with random samples of new shipments, to confirm that what I got was what I paid for.

By the way, if the prices quoted above seem high, take a look at the spot.  A month ago, I recorded this.

Code Select Expand


        bdate        | symbol |  bid   
---------------------+--------+--------
2009-01-15 12:41:16 | ag     | 10.355
2009-01-15 12:42:47 | au     | 802.70
(2 rows)


So those are the broad outlines of the plan.  I'm hoping to find buyers (and eventually sellers, the prices I've been quoted by coin shops when I was checking what the market looks like as a seller made my teeth itch, but right now I'm short FiRNs.  I hate sudden layoffs), but I'm also interested in networking, advice, suggestions, and other sorts of cooperation, which is why you all probably know more than you ever wanted to when you asked me the simple question "how much".

Eventually, I'd like to be able to set up an online environment where people can trade directly with each other, and just take a small cut of each transaction.  Similar to Nucleo for those of you who are familiar with that, but local to New Hampshire, so we don't have to keep mailing things back and forth.

[Russell Kanning]

sounds like a good idea .... if you give people a set decent % above spot that they can buy ... you will get customers, since the shops are way too expensive ... tell us your price and see what happens

[cxxguy]

Sorry, it was broken up and buried in the verbosity above.

Lets say -- for Porcs -- generics at spot+3, and eagles at spot+6.
On Krugs, spot+80.

For my next shipment, I expect to get Austrian Philharmonics, rather than Eagles, unless people tell me they prefer Eagles, or the demand for generics is really high.  I just think an Austrian coin is appropriate. 

Of course, nothing is carved in stone, or even inscribed on gold tablets.  Generally, in terms of mode of  business, people should expect to give me a bit of advance notice, so that I can move the coins from where they are at risk from government confiscation to where they are at risk from criminals.    I'll probably want to meet people I don't know personally in public, e.g. the Taproom.  I only have a few guns, and lots of shady people have a lot of friends. 

Even when I have enough stock to allow it, I'm going to place a hard limit on transactions at $9995, which means that I will never, ever, have to file any reports to the government outside of my personal taxes, and since I plan to occasionally sell coins to strangers in parking lots at a tremendous loss, those should not be high.    I do not know of any legal requirement that I record the names or addresses of customers, and so I will  not.  Records that do not exist cannot be seized, so records which are not required should not be kept.  I should probably warn people that my memory is *terrible*.  ADD, so sad, but what can you do?

[Mike Barskey]

Even when I have enough stock to allow it, I'm going to place a hard limit on transactions at $9995, which means that I will never, ever, have to file any reports to the government outside of my personal taxes...

Not that I think you should follow this rule/law, but technically the govt. does not only require you to report transactions of FRNs about $10K, but it also requires you to report when any one person has transacted a total of more than $10K in FRNs with you over the course of 1 year (even in multiple, lesser-amount transactions). It's bullshit, I know.

[cxxguy]

Even when I have enough stock to allow it, I'm going to place a hard limit on transactions at $9995, which means that I will never, ever, have to file any reports to the government outside of my personal taxes...

Not that I think you should follow this rule/law, but technically the govt. does not only require you to report transactions of FRNs about $10K, but it also requires you to report when any one person has transacted a total of more than $10K in FRNs with you over the course of 1 year (even in multiple, lesser-amount transactions). It's bullshit, I know.

See above re: ADD / bad memory.  Without a requirement that I keep records, how could I possibly know if somebody was a repeat customer?  And we all know that nobody does anything in business which is not required.  Look what happened when (to hear the Socialists tell the story) the Bush administration repealed the law which required banks to be profitable, and they all went bankrupt;   

[KBCraig]

Even when I have enough stock to allow it, I'm going to place a hard limit on transactions at $9995, which means that I will never, ever, have to file any reports to the government outside of my personal taxes...

I don't know if you followed the Ed & Elaine Brown trial, but when they made multiple similar transactions, all below the $10k threshold, they were prosecuted for "structuring payments to avoid taxation", or somesuch legal-speak. I lost track of which charges they were actually convicted of, but the "structuring" was a major component of the evidence against them.

[Ron Helwig]

Even when I have enough stock to allow it, I'm going to place a hard limit on transactions at $9995, which means that I will never, ever, have to file any reports to the government outside of my personal taxes...

I don't know if you followed the Ed & Elaine Brown trial, but when they made multiple similar transactions, all below the $10k threshold, they were prosecuted for "structuring payments to avoid taxation", or somesuch legal-speak. I lost track of which charges they were actually convicted of, but the "structuring" was a major component of the evidence against them.

I think what he meant to say was that he would never do transactions over $9995 because that's just too much to risk losing if it turns into a robbery. After all, saying you would do really large transactions would be like advertising to thugs to rob you.

[Pizza delivery and similar businesses seem to be OK with "structuring" as long as it isn't for tax evasion purposes.]

[cxxguy]

I've been going over figures, looks like I can cut 50cents/oz off, so lets call it:

Generic:  Spot+2.5
Eagle:     Spot+5.5

Rich (734)276-3214

[cxxguy]

I've been going over figures, looks like I can cut 50cents/oz off, so lets call it:

Generic:  Spot+2.5
Eagle:     Spot+5.5

Rich (734)276-3214

The market is closed for the weekend, so I can give a firm quote until about 5:00PM Sunday:
Spot:      13.13/oz
Generic:  15.63/oz
Eagle:     18.63/oz

[cxxguy]

This weekend:

  Silver:  Spot: 13.38
            Generic:            (+2.5) 15.88
            Maple, Eagle:     (+4.5) 17.88

  Gold:   Spot:  938.15
            Krug:                (+70) 1008.15

Until Sun Evening, when markets open.

I will be at Liberty Forum, and I will be bringing some stock.

[George Donnelly]

I'm interested in buying.