[Round 2] Just a Little Heads-Up...

[cxxguy]

sorry, I just don't buy that I'm poisoned because some other freestater decides to shove his dick into a donkey. 

You may not have noticed this, but there are actually Americans ... even in New Hampshire ... who are not Anarchists.  I've even met a couple who don't even qualify as Minarchists, and one who is hardly an Individualist.

To somebody who is not an individualist, there is no problem with judging groups by the actions of some members.  Some judge an entire race because they were once robbed by someone of that race.  Some judge a political movement by the wacky statements made by some of it's members.  Some judge a candidate by the behavior of his followers.  People make generalizations.

So yes, the reputation of the Free State Project can be poisoned by the actions of a few members.  If our reputation is poisoned badly enough, it can even get to the point where the fact that some of us advocate an action becomes a justification for opposing that action.

A quote (forgive me, from memory):

Cassius:  He who steals my purse steals trash.  Twas mine, tis his, it will serve a thousand masters.  But he who steals my reputation steals that which enriches him not, and makes me poor indeed.

From Othello

I do not advocate initiation of force against jokers like this.  I do advocate shunning, or something similar.  Shunning is effective only if, and only to the extent that, those who shun actually find the actions of another unacceptable.  I don't care what people do with their genitalia.  I do, however, care what people do with our reputation.  If somebody shows up and screws donkeys in his own home, and does it quietly, I will neither know about it nor have an opportunity to care.  If somebody shows up and screws donkeys in the town square, he is either a damn fool or deliberately sabotaging the FSP.  Either way, I want nothing to do with him, and will shun him.  Others may not.  If they don't, he may never notice that I have.  But I will, because I do not suffer fools, or saboteurs, gladly.

The easiest way for someone to destroy the movement is to McVeigh it.  That is, to do something so outrageous to us, or to our potential allies that our movement becomes a pariah, and is unable to grow.  A political movement, like a plant, is always either growing or dying.  I don't want to see this one die.

[Tom Sawyer]

The difference in Zack Bass' case is he isn't (as far as I know) a donkey lover looking for sanctuary.

What someone's motivation is, is important. He is a troll that almost single handedly derailed efforts for folks to migrate to Grafton. You can research the mess if you care to know more about it.

If you wanted to move folks like yourself, that believed in liberty to, oh let's say your grandma's town... and things were going along well until, some troll from the internet that doesn't even intend to actually move and help create your freedom enclave, started tell your grandma "Yeah I am one of the principle folks pushing to take over your town and we are going to put a bestiality brothel next door to you and there isn't anything you can do about it old lady!"

Ya think that might cause trouble? Ya think that might derail all the work and investment of the others?

Agent provocateur or social retard? It doesn't matter for the effect is the same. The theoretical/academic is trumped by the results in the real world.

[AntonLee]

sorry, I just don't buy that I'm poisoned because some other freestater decides to shove his dick into a donkey. 

You may not have noticed this, but there are actually Americans ... even in New Hampshire ... who are not Anarchists.  I've even met a couple who don't even qualify as Minarchists, and one who is hardly an Individualist.

To somebody who is not an individualist, there is no problem with judging groups by the actions of some members.  Some judge an entire race because they were once robbed by someone of that race.  Some judge a political movement by the wacky statements made by some of it's members.  Some judge a candidate by the behavior of his followers.  People make generalizations.

So yes, the reputation of the Free State Project can be poisoned by the actions of a few members.  If our reputation is poisoned badly enough, it can even get to the point where the fact that some of us advocate an action becomes a justification for opposing that action.

A quote (forgive me, from memory):

Cassius:  He who steals my purse steals trash.  Twas mine, tis his, it will serve a thousand masters.  But he who steals my reputation steals that which enriches him not, and makes me poor indeed.

I do not advocate initiation of force against jokers like this.  I do advocate shunning, or something similar.  Shunning is effective only if, and only to the extent that, those who shun actually find the actions of another unacceptable.  I don't care what people do with their genitalia.  I do, however, care what people do with our reputation.  If somebody shows up and screws donkeys in his own home, and does it quietly, I will neither know about it nor have an opportunity to care.  If somebody shows up and screws donkeys in the town square, he is either a damn fool or deliberately sabotaging the FSP.  Either way, I want nothing to do with him, and will shun him.  Others may not.  If they don't, he may never notice that I have.  But I will, because I do not suffer fools, or saboteurs, gladly.

The easiest way for someone to destroy the movement is to McVeigh it.  That is, to do something so outrageous to us, or to our potential allies that our movement becomes a pariah, and is unable to grow.  A political movement, like a plant, is always either growing or dying.  I don't want to see this one die.

sounds like you have a great idea for a movement there, you should do that sometime.  In the meantime, the man fucking his donkey is still a member of the FSP, and no amount of shunning will stop anyone's opinion of "us" anyways. 

In case you haven't noticed, it doesn't matter to me what people do with their lives.  Minarchist/Anarchist, it's all just labels I've moved to drop.  I used to be one of those "evil" anarchists, and before that I was a "silly and unprincipled" minarchist.  I'm sure I've embarrassed more than one organization with my simple opinion.

I've spent my time pushing to get people to follow some stupid government for a long long time.  I won't make the same mistake.  When someone mentions how I could possibly be a freestater who's 'associated' with those people like Mr. Donkey Fucker. . . I'll pretend to be a grown up and reply with a question asking how someone could possibly be happy to be associated with another wild animal like myself.  He's wild because he has sex with animals. . . but we'd be wild to pretend we're heroes and do something violent about it.

So, speak out, let the world know that Free Stater's don't welcome people who have sex with animals.  Then speak out about all the other embarrassing people that "make us look bad". . . multiple wives, prostitutes, potheads, crackheads, loonies, conspiracy theorists, gun nuts, alien chasers, ghost whisperers, raw food eaters, horse lovers with ONLY 1+ acres per horse, and people who spell 'stuff' with a 'p-h'

and when you're done you'll be all by yourself.  When someone mentions that the donkey fucker is a free stater, also remind them that he's also a man, a white person, a catholic, a 4H club member, a Scout leader, and drives a Prius.  I'm sure you can think of many more labels.  You guys are smart you can come up with plenty of ways to demonize someone because they don't conform to the 'norm'

in theory, the guy fucking a donkey is none of your business.  In reality, the guy fucking a donkey is none of your business.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

As someone who hasn't moved yet, but will be in the next few months, I'm almost... alarmed.

When I move, I know that I WILL be moving as part of the Free State Project, but I hope to be known for my activism, which will NOT be focused around Free Staters. I plan on being a member of my community, a part of an activist community that includes more than JUST libertarians/minarchists/anarchists/Free Staters.

While I understand cxxguy's concern about the image of the FSP, I really have to wonder if you're missing something VITAL if the ONLY way fellow Granite Stater's see you is as "A Free Stater".

As a side note... I'd much rather have donkey fuckers speaking for the FSP on the grounds that it's a victimless crime than to have people speaking for the FSP saying "Government/taxes/war is needed because..."

I hereby request all public donkey fuckers to please refrain from your normal piece of ass for awhile.

Very punny! 

[cxxguy]

Of course, anyone who so desires is free to shun people who shun people who fuck donkeys publicly.

But then somebody might decide to shun people who shun people who shun people who fuck donkeys publicly.

And then some joker will come up with "Why do people shun people who shun people to show that shunning people is wrong", when the intent of shunning (for me, at least) is not so much to show my disapproval of their actions, but to get them to go away without having to do anything unethical.

As for the concern that somebody might shun somebody who smokes pot or reads their own poetry in public, that is possible.  But the nice thing about shunning is that it is only effective if there is near consensus as to the unacceptability of the behavior involved.  There are probably 1000 Porcupines  in New Hampshire (I include, in this more generic term, those who moved "under the radar").  The average person has about 150 regular social contacts.  Thus, I could be shunned by 85% of Porcupines and still have an average social life, though I would not be the social butterfly I am today. ;->  If I managed to offend 95% of Porcs  (e.g. by engaging in some act of violence, or going on TV and grossly misrepresenting the Project), I would be a pretty lonely guy.  Maybe even so lonely that I decided to start over somewhere else.  Were I such an objectionable person that I offended 95% of Porcs, who are a notoriously accepting lot, it would probably be better for the Project -- and the members thereof -- if I did.

[Tom Sawyer]

Wow, what a polarizing thread...

Somehow, it seems that you have to be in with Joey "call the cops" for President or you have to defend a destructive troll Zack Bass.

I take my own position. I hope that is allowed.

I would in no way associate with someone like Zack Bass. I would publicly denounce him as the attention seeking social reprobate that he is... as is my only purpose for posting on this thread.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

I take my own position. I hope that is allowed.

Absolutely not, citizen. That is prohibited!

I would publicly denounce him as the attention seeking social reprobate that he is... as is my only purpose for posting on this thread.

I don't condone Zach Bass. I was speaking specifically about sex with donkeys.

[AntonLee]

I don't even know who Zack Bass is, and honestly it doesn't matter because I wasn't speaking about him specifically in the first place.

Would I allow Donkey fucker to buy food in my store.  Possibly.  Would I be the best man at the Donkey fucker/Pedro the Mail Burro's wedding?  Nope.  Would I hang out with Donkey fucker?  Nah I don't think I would, because I'm not sure what we had in common.

If Donkey fucker had a group of men in blue threatening him because he fucks donkeys. . . I'd side with him. 

I didn't join the FSP to be put into yet another category.  I am who I am and you are whatever you are. . . do what you want to, because you won't find much of an enemy in me.

[BillKauffman]

If somebody shows up and screws donkeys in his own home, and does it quietly

LOL - how do you screw a donkey quietly even in your own home?

[Free libertarian]

If somebody shows up and screws donkeys in his own home, and does it quietly

LOL - how do you screw a donkey quietly even in your own home?

Bottle of wine, Marvin Gaye on the stereo, a little candle light...c'mon figure it out!   

[BillKauffman]

If somebody shows up and screws donkeys in his own home, and does it quietly

LOL - how do you screw a donkey quietly even in your own home?

Bottle of wine, Marvin Gaye on the stereo, a little candle light...c'mon figure it out!   

Hmmm...maybe a six-pack of Bud Lite, Molly Hatchet on the stereo, and a strobe light would do the trick!

[AntonLee]

that's hot

[zackbass]

Of course, anyone who so desires is free to shun people who shun people who fuck donkeys publicly.

But then somebody might decide to shun people who shun people who shun people who fuck donkeys publicly.

And then some joker will come up with "Why do people shun people who shun people to show that shunning people is wrong", when the intent of shunning (for me, at least) is not so much to show my disapproval of their actions, but to get them to go away without having to do anything unethical.

As for the concern that somebody might shun somebody who smokes pot or reads their own poetry in public, that is possible.  But the nice thing about shunning is that it is only effective if there is near consensus as to the unacceptability of the behavior involved.

Yeah, I've been shunning Democrats for decades.  I expect to bring them to their knees any day now.

The problem with shunning is that it never works at all in Civilization - anything more advanced than a 30-member hunter-gatherer camp.  I have noticed that WalMart doesn't care at all if O.J. Simpson decides to buy their wares.

[cxxguy]

Yeah, I've been shunning Democrats for decades.  I expect to bring them to their knees any day now.

The problem with shunning is that it never works at all in Civilization - anything more advanced than a 30-member hunter-gatherer camp.  I have noticed that WalMart doesn't care at all if O.J. Simpson decides to buy their wares.

Hmmm ... perhaps you didn't notice what I said about "It only works of a hefty percentage of people agree that you should be shunned".

I think that there is probably a large percentage of people out there so ignorant of economics that they actually prefer to deal with democrats.

And I know that there are people out there who like to pay low prices.

On the other hand, momma always said, "nobody likes a donkey fucker".

[BillKauffman]

On the other hand, momma always said, "nobody likes a donkey fucker".

Hmmm...my momma always said "nobody likes a f***ing donkey" and she meant a Democrat!