Brian Travis invaded by bureaucrats

[erisian]

Property rights do not originate with the government, because no rights originate with the government. All rights originate from the individual, and collectively from "We The People". The government is authorized by The People to regulate certain things, "for the common good".

In the US Constitution, "unalienable" means that you have this right by birth. This right can not be taken from you under the law, and further, you can not even abdicate this right. So if a law is passed which abolishes this right, then the law is simply invalid. You still retain the inalienable right even if you (mistakenly) agree with the invalid law.

[MistyBlue]

I still don't see where the government has the ability to grant property rights to me. You mention that a bank might have a claim on my property, but that's a voluntary contract that I enter into with a private organization. And if I buy my land with cash, I should own it, right? Or do I have to ask the government to grant me the right to own property? What about other property, like my car? Or my television? Does government give me a right to own that property as well?

So I'm not quite satisfied with your answer. Can you try to clarify?

Yes, people own personal property when they pay for it. You have that right. My point was the banks can NOT do what they want with a mortgaged property even though there isn't any wording in mortgage contracts stating otherwise. They legally cannot put that into any private contracts either...the government stops them from doing that. The government forces banks to give the rights of the property over the buyer regardless of who owns the controlling share of the property. Believe me...the banks would adore having the right to do whatever they want to increase income on a property that someone else is still paying for.

And since this is a subject that can be debated until the cows come home with neither party having a satisfactory answer...let's keep up the quid pro quo (Clarice  ) and stop hemming and hawing over the answers. The questions probably won't get any easier...yet I will continue to reply honestly and to the best of my own knowledge. I don't promise to agree with you, so that shouldn't be cause for not answering subsequent questions. Ya know...since this thread is about the horse seizure.

[MengerFan]

It seems you successfully illustrated how government attempts to attenuate rights, not that they can grant rights. Likewise, if I kick someone in the groin, we cannot logically conclude that I have the magical power to grant the right of not being kicked in the groin.

[cyne]

Fair enough....I can answer your question with your own words, the Constitution gives us the right to the pursuit of happiness.

  The Declaration of Independence says that right is given by the Creator.   Does the Constitution even mention the pursuit of happiness? 

Also the government allows us to consider land "our own" even before we own it.

  In my opinion,  we never own it.  When we buy and sell land, we are buying and selling the right to rent it from the government.   Your local government sends you a rent bill every year, people who can't or won't pay it won't "own" their land for long. 

Yet if we take a mortgage on a property for 80% of it's worth...it's still ours to do with as we wish as long as we pay our mortgage/promise off in a timely manner.

  In most places, no, it is not ours to do with as we wish.  That same local government that sends us a rent bill every year also says we need their permission to do anything useful with our land.   Where I live, there is no zoning but we still need permission from the town to put up buildings, and permission from the state to make a septic system.    When we were shopping for land, one place we looked at had deed covenants that said we couldn't have an outdoor clothesline, a satellite dish, or animals on that land.  So not only does the government tell us what we can and can't do with our land, a prior "owner" can restrict our rights also. 

[MistyBlue]

I was just posting my thought in the subject. Not arguing. I can't see how an opinion can be wrong. And as I stated...I could be wrong.

Can we get back to discussing the actual horse seizure? I realize this is also a property rights issue, but it's going off on so many tangents that the original topic keeps getting pushed aside.

[Russell Kanning]

Tom Sawyer...thanks.  I do see that not everyone here marches to the exact same beat but does share the same core beliefs about liberty.

actually there are some people who post here who completely oppose my core beliefs about liberty and some are willing to "take away my liberty" if necessary to uphold a law or "just do their jobs".
Many people who post on this forum live very peacefully with others and try to live in cooperation with others. They are my friends.
I do not agree with you ... that without moral laws, enforced by nice law enforcement officers, supported by decent caring animal lovers ... that animals would necessarily suffer. Since I may be wrong, it is better that I don't enforce my opinion on others.

[MistyBlue]

In most places, no, it is not ours to do with as we wish.  That same local government that sends us a rent bill every year also says we need their permission to do anything useful with our land.   Where I live, there is no zoning but we still need permission from the town to put up buildings, and permission from the state to make a septic system.    When we were shopping for land, one place we looked at had deed covenants that said we couldn't have an outdoor clothesline, a satellite dish, or animals on that land.  So not only does the government tell us what we can and can't do with our land, a prior "owner" can restrict our rights also.

Well, not *anything* useful with our land but I see what you're saying. You need permission from the state to put in a septic system because one put in improperly can easily be a major pain and expense and health risk to your neighbor or to surrounding land you do not own.

As a retired Realtor..I have seen first hand countless times what a bad septic system has done. Try explaining your inalienable property rights to the man I know who lost 74 head of cattle to e coli from his neighbors "I don't need the health board's approval of my septic" opinion. 74 head...guess the monetary worth of that? Or the single mom I know who sat in the hospital watching her 3 year old son suffer due to having the same type of neighbor. Or the 7 other people I know who had their own faucets start running their neighbor's feces.

As for the deed convenent...the government protects you from entering one unknowingly. In other words...when you buy into a restricted deed community you have to be given the entire list of covenents before the time of the closing. That's by government law. You buy into those areas at your own discretion, nobody forces you to do so. When you buy there, you sign knowing full well these are the restrictions and agree to them. Those are in PUDs (planned unit developments) and are 100% voluntarily entered into. It's the government that keeps the owner of the common from springing this on you by surprise.

[Sam A. Robrin]

it's the government that gives us the right to own property.

*gag*

No, I think she was serious . . .

[Sam A. Robrin]

this is a subject that can be debated until the cows come home

Will someone be lying in wait to confiscate them, too?  Will you declare yourself the winner if that happens?

[stanford]

I was just posting my thought in the subject. Not arguing. I can't see how an opinion can be wrong. And as I stated...I could be wrong.

Can we get back to discussing the actual horse seizure? I realize this is also a property rights issue, but it's going off on so many tangents that the original topic keeps getting pushed aside.

You're probably not going to like this answer, Rebecca. Heidi's lawyer has suggested that I STFU (he said it in a bit more tactful way) about specifics of the case. While he's not my lawyer, I'll respect his suggestion so he can best represent Heidi, the owner of the horses. I guess we'll have to wait for the trial.

I can tell you that it rained here yesterday, and I notieced that there were six horses standing in the rain right next to perfectly dry shelters. I guess you can lead a horse to shelter, but you can't make him stand under it.

But I'd be happy to talk about other topics in this thread, like private property, the abuse of government power, humane societies that use government force to stock their pet stores, or dodgeball.

[shyfrog]

[cyne]

Well, not *anything* useful with our land but I see what you're saying. You need permission from the state to put in a septic system because one put in improperly can easily be a major pain and expense and health risk to your neighbor or to surrounding land you do not own.

  I agree with you that there are good reasons for the rules, but that doesn't change the fact that we don't really own land and are not free to do as we please with it. 

[BillKauffman]

I've been under the impression that the Constitution was the start of our government, although I may be wrong in that.

Actually the articles of confederation for the national government.

[BillKauffman]

If it's a voluntary society why do they have to explicitly sign a contract?

You are only bound to any contracts you voluntarily and explicitly enter.

would the contract mentioned above address anything moral? And if it doesn't, what would be the remedy for moral wrongs such as purposely causing animals to suffer either with malice or by careless neglect?

Only if both parties wanted it to. For instance the person who sold the horse could stipulate in the contract how they want the animal to be treated.

yet it's perfectly okay to remove the freedom of being free from suffering just because the living thing isn't capable of speech or cognitive thought? Is that acceptable?

Whatever is spelled out in contracts and agreed to voluntarily is "acceptable"...it might not be judged moral to others - but others are not to judge what two people do voluntarily without force or fraud.

[David]

I can tell you that it rained here yesterday, and I notieced that there were six horses standing in the rain right next to perfectly dry shelters. I guess you can lead a horse to shelter, but you can't make him stand under it.

Might be a good idea to get video of it, just in case, record the temperature when it happens as well.     Crazy as it sounds, because apparently some think that horses are fragile like a summer flower.