Brian Travis invaded by bureaucrats

[AntonLee]

Dude...like whoa. 

I am going to guess this is the BBs funny guy? This is tongue in cheek, correct?

Horses cannot eat their masters. They're herbivores. They eat...like...herbs.  Not Herb the guy...herb the plant.

Most animals cannot think and problem solve in the abstract. Which is why they don't have rights. So they're not likely to form a recon mission for groceries. 

Which other way would you suggest dealing with an issue like this? I see the "well go give them your money to buy their horsie." Okay, there's one. Of course rewarding bad behavior with cash isn't likely to stop them from repeating it ad nauseum, I can see you don't have children and haven't figured this simple equation out. "Reward for bad behavior = escalating bad behavior for more reward." Apparently only horses have horse sense anymore.

Oh wait...I see you asked the question and answered it for me. Not the answer I would have given but then I'm guess you prefer playing solo and not having an actual debate with another person. Just enjoying your words in print then? 

There were other options open to Brian and Heidi...they tried to give 10 or so horses to a rescue who didn't have the room or finances to take that many at once. Okay...so they were willing to give them away. Couldn't find any other takers? None of the other FSPers wanted them? They're supposedly oh-so-expensive now that the SPCA has them. But were free a couple months ago. The SPCA does take horses that owners no longer want to/can feed...you can call them and give up those animals to them. They will then care for the animals and adopt them out. Why not that option? Ohhhh...because those are the...what was it...douchebags. Rather see them starve than give them to someone who will feed them and care for them just because you hate who they are. Yeah, makes sense. A wonderfully mature, adult attitude.

What's the deal with using douchebag as an insult anyways? I've never seen a douchbag run...and can't for the life of me figure out what a swat team and small bags of a vinegar solution have in common. And why douchebag and not colostomy bag?

It's an odd man who wears a sidearm into a battle of wits. 

It's quite obvious you need to go watch the douchebags run!  As for horses not being capable of eating their masters, I'm pretty sure that horses have teeth right?  Do you think those teeth might be able to tear flesh from a body?  Could these teeth mash the skin and flesh into pieces small enough for a horse to swallow?  Since you're the expert, perhaps you could enlighten us.  Seems to me if an animal is capable of ingesting flesh then, well. . .you know. 

I would never dare insult a colostomy bag in such a manner.  I'm glad the only option you see fit is to force people to do things.  We all get it.  If people don't do as you like, you force them to.  It is pretty simple. . .and I frankly only continue talking here because I do like seeing my words in print.  ;O)

Speaking of wonderfully mature adult attitudes. . . I'll have to work on mine.   I've been silly all this time trying to figure out ways of solving what I see as problems without using threatening attitudes or the use of violence against others.  I'm that asshole that actually goes up to someone and states my problem with them and offers time, debate, and conversation to hopefully solve problems without threats or violence. 

[MistyBlue]

I, personally, know everything anyone needs to know about horses: one end bites, the other end kicks, and everything in between costs money. 

   
LMAO...you've got it!
The funny part is that there's a common saying among horse folk extremely similar
"You feed one end, clean up after the other and throw money at the middle." 

So, the "community" argument falls apart for Free Staters simply because so few had either knowledge of horses and their needs, or direct knowledge of circumstances at the Travis farm. Once they were asked to do what they could do --basic barn construction is easy-- they showed up in force. None of them knew one end of a horse from the other, but they knew how to work hammers and nails.

I think this part is wonderful...and it also gave me a decent idea of how the FSP community works for one another. Made me realize that maybe it's not all tinfoil hat wearers. 

The community argument does not fall apart for the "horse community", because the accusations were centered amongst the people who are supposed to know how to care for horses. This is the community that failed, by seeking to use the power of the state instead of the power of community. Instead of helping, they accused. While knowing much more about animal husbandry than how to build pole barns, they didn't offer even that much help.

They sure offered to show up with massive trailers, though.

But how could anyone else have helped? Both Brian and Heidi have argued from day one of this fiasco that those horses were fine, healthy, in good condition and didn't need a thing except maybe a couple more lbs after a harsh winter. That they didn't need help taking care of those horses because there wasn't anything wrong with them. So had I lived near enough to drive by and see the condition of those horses on thier property...had I walked up to the door and knocked to see if I could offer advice or help (without getting shot at hopefully)...would they have told me different? It seems their opinion is that those horses were healthy and didn't need a damned thing. So how could I or any other non-FSPer have helped?

The only other scenerio would be that they would tell what they've alluded to as "nosy neighbors butting into their private business on their private property" that they did indeed need advice, help, whatever. That somehow seems an extremely unlikely scenerio to me...and would also be admitting on their own part that those horses were indeed in need of intervention.

As for the massive trailers...those are pretty average. The most common is a two horse bp or gn (bumper pull or gooseneck hitch) but if they were going to need to move more than 2 or 4 horses it makes sense to ask help from people who had larger trailers. All farms have big pickups...I have a two horse place right now and have a 3/4 ton truck...you can't get hay or large feed purchases to your farm in a Kia. And if you ever want to move one of your horses you'll need a large pickup to move a trailer. Or a horse van. I guess or a school bus...but that's the first I've ever heard of that happening. The window height compared to the floor height makes it an extremely inapt vehicle to move large animals in. Massive trailers are usually pulled by semi trucks. Those are air-ride, heated and air conditioned.

It would have been a nice bit of intra-community fellowship to offer assistance --even assistance of knowledge about local resources-- instead of calling for police to seize the horses. After waiting through four months of winter!

IIRC...the last person they bought a horse from offered them all sorts of information on vets to use, feed store locations and hay suppliers. She didn't offer resources for horses in need because she assumed if someone is buying a horse and has almost 30 more at home...that they have the funds to care for those horses. Or why buy another one and waste feed money for the skinny ones at home? They also didn't take her up on the offer of where to get hay, stated to her that they had massive $10k or so loads of hay coming in from out of state all the time. They knew at least one rescue and went there for help...that rescue could only afford/had room to take on 3. They didn't ask her for info on other rescues that might take more. And the SPCA is well known in every state of this country for taking in unwanted animals in need. If you go to them before they have to come to you....you can sign your animals right over to them and they take them for free, feed them for free, medicate them for free and adopt them out without asking for funds from the person signing them over. They opted not to do that either.

And last but definitely not least...they had Beth there. And my money is on Beth telling them those horses needed better care and gave options of how to get that done. Beth isn't someone to sit on her tuckus and not do something about scrawny animals stuffed in tiny pens open to the weather 24/7. But she can only do so much...she also can't force them to care for their animals properly or to provide her with enough funds for her to care for them properly. Not to mention that as soon as the truth started becoming public on this BB...Brian's first response was to change his sob story from "there was nothing wrong with them" to "it's all Beth's fault!" That alone says a whole lot about the mindset of these two people. So now at this time we're left with "My caretaker didn't pay for OUR horses' food and shelters with her own money!" I dunno...did you ever work anywhere where you had to pay to work there? Has anyone ever asked you to financially support their pets for them? With 2 people having 3 jobs between them?

The whole thing smells to high heaven to me. I can only go by what B & H have actually stated and by the videos I've seen. Very underweight poorly conditioned horses coming from a home that says they were just fine! 3 different times and 3 different folks telling them point blank their shelters weren't adequate over a period of months and well before the seizure and they claim they had no idea what the laws were regarding shelter. Now they're trying to insinuate they might not have had any idea how to care for their horses properly...yet Heidi is proclaimed a lifelong horse owner and professional breeder and race trainer who isn't liked by the horse community supposedly because she "does all the care herself!". They didn't know Coggins was necessary to move a horse to a new state...yet again Heidi had to have known that 100% or she's lying about knowing anything about horses or that they're expensive race horses/show horses/pro breeder. Something smells there...and it's not just the few hundred tons of manure packed all over the place. 

[MistyBlue]

Anton...aha...now I get it. You're the resident wisenheimer.  Good...I can get into that. Been known to be a wise-arse myself. 

It's quite obvious you need to go watch the douchebags run!  As for horses not being capable of eating their masters, I'm pretty sure that horses have teeth right?  Do you think those teeth might be able to tear flesh from a body?  Could these teeth mash the skin and flesh into pieces small enough for a horse to swallow?  Since you're the expert, perhaps you could enlighten us.  Seems to me if an animal is capable of ingesting flesh then, well. . .you know. 

I have seen douchebags...erm...swat teams run. Only one guy ran like a moron...but that's because he's my ex. 

Yes, horses have teeth. Yes, they can tear flesh from a body. They might *possibly* be able to chew it, however they have teeth designed specifically for dry forage and not chunks of bloody meat. They have incisors in the front of their mouth and then top and bottom jaws have what's called a bridge...a long toothless stretch of gums. This is where the bit sits in the mouth when they're wearing a bridle. After that are large flat grinding molars. Horses cannot swallow large bits of anything, hence the massive grinding molars. They can easily suffer from Choke...getting food stuck in their throats. Horses cannot vomit or burp...so choke can kill a horse if not treated. Horses also have the digestive system designed by hell...they're probably some of the worst designed large herbivores on the planet. They have small stomachs and huge lengths of intestines with tons of tight turns. The number one cause of death in a horse is colic. Colic is basically indigestion...they can colic from gas, from impactions, from twists in the colon...hell they can colic for any reason. And it can be very deadly without immediate treatment and in many cases surgery. Changes in food is probably the most common cause of colic. So yes, eating meat can kill them. Not to mention their bodies are designed to extract nutrition from plants and not meat. So even if the meat didn't lodge in their throats and kill them or lodge in their guts and kill them...they'd still slowly starve to death on a diet of meat. Horses can be a real pita to properly feed and manage due to their digestive system...all other large herbivore livestock are ruminants and digest totally differently. And much better.

A horse eating meat to survive would work as well as a human chained in a field of grass with only the grass to eat. Actually, it would work worse because we're omnivores so could extract *some* nutrition from grass. Not enough to live for long, but a horse eating meat would drop dead a lot more quickly. Not to mention I don't think many people would be safe if we had carnivorous attacking horses...I don't want to deal with an animal weighing over 1000 lbs who wants to eat me. 

Now if the horses' owners were scarecrows stuffed with hay....... 

[AntonLee]

thank you for that insight into how horses eat.  It was interesting.  I'm not being a wiseass (right now).

[MistyBlue]

No problem.  Sometimes I can actually get some use out of this head full of weird-ass (and usually useless) knowledge. I never seem to forget anything related to weird stuff...and yet don't ask me where the hell my truck keys are right now. *sigh*

[Russell Kanning]

Tell me, then, what do I pay government for?

to not beat you up

[Rodinia]

For when plunder is abetted by the law, it does not fear your courts, your gendarmes, and your prisons. Rather, it may call upon them for help.

Tom Sawyer...thanks.  I do see that not everyone here marches to the exact same beat but does share the same core beliefs about liberty.

actually there are some people who post here who completely oppose my core beliefs about liberty and some are willing to "take away my liberty" if necessary to uphold a law or "just do their jobs".
Many people who post on this forum live very peacefully with others and try to live in cooperation with others. They are my friends.
I do not agree with you ... that without moral laws, enforced by nice law enforcement officers, supported by decent caring animal lovers ... that animals would necessarily suffer. Since I may be wrong, it is better that I don't enforce my opinion on others.

[Rodinia]

An opinion can be wrong if it's wrong.

[Keyser Soce]

Try explaining your inalienable property rights to the man I know who lost 74 head of cattle to e coli from his neighbors "I don't need the health board's approval of my septic" opinion.

No problem. If he was damaged by the actions of his neighbor, he is entitled to compensation. What does that have to do with me and why should I need permission from the crap police? Am I guilty of incompetence until proven innocent?

As for the deed convenent...the government protects you from entering one unknowingly.

No thanks. Not only don't I want the government to protect me from myself, I don't want to be forced to pay to protect you from yourself. If a person can't read or understand a contract, why would they sign it? Caveat emptor.

[MistyBlue]

Try explaining your inalienable property rights to the man I know who lost 74 head of cattle to e coli from his neighbors "I don't need the health board's approval of my septic" opinion.


No problem. If he was damaged by the actions of his neighbor, he is entitled to compensation. What does that have to do with me and why should I need permission from the crap police? Am I guilty of incompetence until proven innocent?

He's definitely entitled to compensation. But without laws/regulations on putting in and maintaining a septic system...what's to stop the neighbor from constantly doing the same thing? And if that neighbor didn't pay up? Without a law to back it up...how does the farmer get his compensation? Or if the neighbor can't afford to replace 74 head? Then the lack of the law just bankrupted the farmer who did nothing wrong other than having an asshat of an ignorant "don't wanna follow no health laws" neighbor. That's fair?
How about the woman sitting by her child's hospital bed? There shouldn't be any laws concerning septic tanks because she's due compensation?  Seriously? So screw everyone's health...as long as *I* have the right for my shite to infect everyone else then by golly I'll fight for that right! It almost kills an innocent child? Too bad, give them a few bucks and let me do whatever I want on my own property because I happen to hate police officers. 
Makes as much sense as tits on a bull to me.
This is what confuses me...if I hate the teaching system I blame the board of ed and not the teachers. If I hate the laws...then I work to change the laws and don't waste my time and energy hating on those who's job it is to uphold those laws. It's not like the LEOs make the laws. Passive aggressive civil disobedience may possibly highlight some flaws with some laws. But it doesn't do bupkis to change them. To continue that as a way to change or reform is pissing in the wind. With zoning and farming and right to farm and land rights and open trails and all the other things I work on...I find it absolutely ineffective to protest by civil disobedience and actually get results by working to change things at the core instead. Not to mention if I'm walking around trying to get arrested just to "prove a point" then all I'm achieving is a tiny amount of pseudo-fame online instead of a lot of change in the actual laws. It's like a toddler having a tantrum...nobody gives in to the child because their method is ineffective...but loud so it gets attention. Just negative attention that doesn't change a thing.

Not that this has anything to do with the thread topic...which I see has a tough time staying on track here.  But I guess people can tell plonkers left and right and be believed...or at least keep changing the subject hoping people won't realize that they might be supporting someone who is lying through their teeth to those who don't understand horses so well in order to keep the anger levels high and support for themselves.

[Free libertarian]

Misty Blue you say if you hate the teaching system you blame the board of education etc.   What if a person hates the "teaching system" and doesn't want to pay for it? In your world would they still be forced to at the point of a gun via property taxes?

[Keyser Soce]

Try explaining your inalienable property rights to the man I know who lost 74 head of cattle to e coli from his neighbors "I don't need the health board's approval of my septic" opinion.

No problem. If he was damaged by the actions of his neighbor, he is entitled to compensation. What does that have to do with me and why should I need permission from the crap police? Am I guilty of incompetence until proven innocent?

He's definitely entitled to compensation.

Great, problem solved without a bloated bureaucracy funded by coercion.

But without laws/regulations on putting in and maintaining a septic system...what's to stop the neighbor from constantly doing the same thing?

Guess I spoke too soon.

What's to stop him from doing it anyways? Apparently, the law didn't stop him as I'm sure it was already in place when the incidents you describe took place. Your stories demonstrate the epic failure of the system you're defending.

You act like the law is some kind of voodoo magic and words on paper somehow solve problems. If passing a law is so effective a solution, how's that war on drugs coming? And of course there is no child or spousal abuse because, after all, it's illegal. Hell, why not pass a law against hunger and solve starvation while you're at it.

And if that neighbor didn't pay up? Without a law to back it up...how does the farmer get his compensation?

Civil court? Nah, I know, let's throw the guy in prison and then raise the farmer's taxes to pay for the cop to arrest him, the public defender, the prosecutor, the bailiff, the judge, the prison guard and oh, did I mention the cost of building the prison, feeding him and supporting the guy's family on welfare while he's in jail?

So your solution to him being damaged is to damage him further with higher taxes which if he doesn't pay, the town will take his property all together. You seem pretty sharp, I'll bet if you think about it you can come up with a better solution.

Or if the neighbor can't afford to replace 74 head? Then the lack of the law just bankrupted the farmer who did nothing wrong other than having an asshat of an ignorant "don't wanna follow no health laws" neighbor. That's fair?

Apparently, the neighbor owns property. Maybe now the farmer does?

If the neighbor can't afford to pay, how is the current system any better? He still doesn't get compensated and in addition is forced to support a bureaucracy which is (clearly) unable to protect his interests anyways. That's fair?

Insurance. Problem solved.

How about the woman sitting by her child's hospital bed? There shouldn't be any laws concerning septic tanks because she's due compensation?  Seriously? So screw everyone's health...as long as *I* have the right for my shite to infect everyone else then by golly I'll fight for that right! It almost kills an innocent child? Too bad, give them a few bucks and let me do whatever I want on my own property because I happen to hate police officers.  Makes as much sense as tits on a bull to me.

No, you don't have the right to damage the person or property of others. Tragedies abound. Why compound the problem with forced non-solutions?

Talk to god about the bull tits.

This is what confuses me...if I hate the teaching system I blame the board of ed and not the teachers. If I hate the laws...then I work to change the laws and don't waste my time and energy hating on those who's job it is to uphold those laws. It's not like the LEOs make the laws.

Please, not the "I'm just doing my job" bullshit. I really hate that. It's so 1946.

http://www.elharo.com/journal/job.html

Passive aggressive civil disobedience may possibly highlight some flaws with some laws. But it doesn't do bupkis to change them. To continue that as a way to change or reform is pissing in the wind. With zoning and farming and right to farm and land rights and open trails and all the other things I work on...I find it absolutely ineffective to protest by civil disobedience and actually get results by working to change things at the core instead. Not to mention if I'm walking around trying to get arrested just to "prove a point" then all I'm achieving is a tiny amount of pseudo-fame online instead of a lot of change in the actual laws. It's like a toddler having a tantrum...nobody gives in to the child because their method is ineffective...but loud so it gets attention. Just negative attention that doesn't change a thing.

Whatever works for you.

Not that this has anything to do with the thread topic...which I see has a tough time staying on track here.  But I guess people can tell plonkers left and right and be believed...or at least keep changing the subject hoping people won't realize that they might be supporting someone who is lying through their teeth to those who don't understand horses so well in order to keep the anger levels high and support for themselves.

45 people are murdered everyday in the u.s.
1800 people are raped everyday in the u.s.
16,000 children die of starvation or malnutrition worldwide everyday

I'm sorry if the horsey didn't have a shelter.

[KBCraig]

Keyser Soce, FTW.

[AntonLee]

indeed.  I find it quite amusing sometimes.  . . hell, sometimes I even slip into trying to use the power of aggression against others to figure out problems.  Nowadays,  I stop, think about how it is I could solve this problem WITHOUT calling  jackboots to come beat someone up for me.

It's hard, this critical thinking thing.  . . lots of people just decide that if they don't have to see people getting beat up, then it doesn't happen.  "Hell I pay my taxes, and those people did something wrong according to those pieces of paper in Concord. . .therefore I agree with just allowing some thugs to shoot them in order for my will to be done (when I say MY will, I mean the will of people who I know are just so much smarter than me)

believe as you wish, but try a little thought experiment sometime. . . try and watch the news and just think about how you might have been able to solve those problems without using police or shooting them because they don't do as YOU please on THEIR property.

[MistyBlue]

45 people are murdered everyday in the u.s.
1800 people are raped everyday in the u.s.
16,000 children die of starvation or malnutrition worldwide everyday

I'm sorry if the horsey didn't have a shelter

I always place people's safety above animals.
Starvation aside...have you bothered to check the statistics of a lawless society on the rape and murders?
The point with septic was...if nobody had to follow the more involved/more expensive ways of implementing a septic system these cases would inflate in numbers dramatically. How do I know? Hmmm, maybe actually researching it? In real life and not online? So screw the fact that more kids can and will get sick and possibly even die from e coli poisoning. As for the neighbor owning property? It was mortgaged to the hilt. And anywho...wouldn't being able to get his property in payment for the loss of your business or possible loss of your child involve...the law? or would it be At The Point of your gun?
And way to go to deflect, yet again, the truth about B&H's lack of compassion and even basic, bottom of the barrel care for living animals.
But no...go ahead and argue everything under the sun. Seriously...why keep on topic?