Brian Travis invaded by bureaucrats

[Gard]

So the NHSPCA took 12 horses which are, according to the state, since they don't have health certificates, possibly infected with a deadly contagious disease, and transported them to other horse farms. That's worse than stupid.

Nice point, and if they were worried about infections, then why weren't all the horses taken, or given the vaccines while the doctor was there? So many odd things happened here. Road violations, a lack of proper issuance of notification regarding "paperwork", the closure of the road to even foot traffic.

It looks like the government has been very lax in how it's operated, which really undercuts the argument that this was done for the protection of the horses.

[Gard]

The original twelve were not take because of the missing health certificates... they were taken prior to the Department of Agriculture knowing they did not have the documentation.
The remaining seventeen are in quarantine until the tests can be confirmed negative.

I don't understand... If the original twelve were taken not because of the health certificates, why were they taken? The impression I got from the UL article was that the vaccine issue was the impetus for the invasion and theft. At least, that was what I saw as the government argument. But with your post, John, I see they were taken prior to the Dept of Agriculture knowing about the lack of vaccine documentation. So, what was the original problem, and why has the story changed slightly from what I thought was the original rationale for the government invasion?

I might be missing something, dunno, but this seems like jerry-rigging...

I'd like to get a horse vet to accompany me to the office of the police chief, and ask some questions. No one answers my calls by phone, of course.

Be Seeing You

[margomaps]

The original twelve were not take because of the missing health certificates... they were taken prior to the Department of Agriculture knowing they did not have the documentation.
The remaining seventeen are in quarantine until the tests can be confirmed negative.

I don't understand... If the original twelve were taken not because of the health certificates, why were they taken?

I think the Union Leader article referenced on the previous page was pretty clear about this:

Candia Police Chief Mike McGillen said the 12 horses were taken because of shelter and welfare concerns, not because they lacked health certificates.

The impression I got from the UL article was that the vaccine issue was the impetus for the invasion and theft. At least, that was what I saw as the government argument. But with your post, John, I see they were taken prior to the Dept of Agriculture knowing about the lack of vaccine documentation. So, what was the original problem, and why has the story changed slightly from what I thought was the original rationale for the government invasion?

Either we're reading different articles, or one (or more) of us is misunderstanding the words.  From the UL article:

McGillen said the search warrant has been sealed and he still cannot comment on who filed the original complaint.

<snip>

Travis said police told him that the complaint was lodged about two weeks ago.

Coincidentally, also according to the article (and verified by Brian):

George confirmed that her husband had visited the Travis property at their request a couple of weeks ago to examine a horse with an injured foot.

Someone lodged a complaint two weeks ago over concern over the "welfare and shelter" of the horses.  This was presumably Dr. George from the Deerfield Veterinary Clinic, since he was at the Travis's residence to treat a mare's leg two weeks ago.  He saw something he didn't like (the aforementioned concerns) and called the SPCA.  Since Steve Sprowles had already "served notice" to the Travis's last fall regarding the legally required shelters for the horses, this was "strike two" and resulted in confiscation of some horses (as per the law) when inspection of the premises on Monday unveiled sickly looking horses and/or continued inadequate shelter.  It sounds like they discovered that the health certificates were absent after the complaint, but before Monday's visit; and that's the stated reason why all the horses -- the 17 remaining and 12 taken -- are now "quarantined".

I think there might be other reasons 12 horses were taken beyond the stated one (concerns over their welfare/shelter): they didn't have trailer space for any more horses; in the judgment of the vet the other 17 horses looked OK; in the judgment of the vet there was sufficient shelter on the property for the remaining 17 horses.  This is speculation on my part, but those reasons at least make some sense.

The basic facts of the case now seem rather clear to me.

[KBCraig]

am i the only one who wonders more about the colorado situation?

isnt it a little odd to anyone that this is the second time that heidi is being accused of neglect?

No, it's not. Accusations are common, either because the accuser is petty and vindictive, or because they don't know squat about horses.

I recall that UL columnist John Harrigan was once accused of cruelty by a neighbor, because he drug a dead horse behind his tractor out to the boneyard.

The Colorado accusation was investigated and dismissed.

[leetninja]

so what shelters are on their farm?

[slim]

so what shelters are on their farm?

I am not sure what shelters are on the property but if you look on the calendar back in November 23rd there was a barn raising party out at the farm. I also remember there were also Porc 411 calls that the building was pretty much done just a few finishing touches that the family was going to complete themselves. Monday on FTL when Brian was talking about the situation he mentioned that a couple of the shelters had some damage from the ice storm and it sounded like the damage was a few shingles and maybe a minor hole in the roof.

From all that I suspect that there are at least 2 shelters for the horses and probably more.

If the issue was about shelter then the PD would have already charged them with that. If the issue was a possible cotangent then all the horses should have been quarantined in one location to limit the possible exposure but 12 of the horses were whisked away which would increase the probability of spreading any infection.

This whole situation is not sounding right even some of the people commenting on the Union Leader's website are saying things are not adding up. The police and the NHSPCA not talking is odd, from a lot of stories that I see about SPCA's around the country when they go in to take animals they love to have media with them to show the horriable conditions but the only video that has come out is from the owner and no media was brought with the NHSPCA and the cops even blocked people from the road.

[slave_3646]

so what shelters are on their farm?

This might be a bit provocative, but I don't really care...

What does it matter if they had ANY shelters on their farm? Are horses 'people' or 'property'? If they're 'property' (which I do believe they are) the Travis' have every RIGHT to do with them as they please.

BTW... do you believe in God and creation? If you do, certainly you realize that God created the horse long before he created the barn or 3 sided shelter, right? Oh wait, what's that? You don't believe in God? Oh, Ok... then you must believe in evolution then, right? Tell me then, how did the 3 sided shelter or barn evolve first so that the horse could evolve? Oh wait, that's pretty stupid too, isn't it?

Gee, I guess horses must have developed some way of coping with cold temperatures...hmm, what could that be? Do they learn to huddle together perhaps? Maybe with their rumps to the wind? Kind of like it's LEGAL in WY or CO? Hmmm, nahh, couldn't be, could it?

[leetninja]

so what shelters are on their farm?

I am not sure what shelters are on the property but if you look on the calendar back in November 23rd there was a barn raising party out at the farm. I also remember there were also Porc 411 calls that the building was pretty much done just a few finishing touches that the family was going to complete themselves. Monday on FTL when Brian was talking about the situation he mentioned that a couple of the shelters had some damage from the ice storm and it sounded like the damage was a few shingles and maybe a minor hole in the roof.

From all that I suspect that there are at least 2 shelters for the horses and probably more.

If the issue was about shelter then the PD would have already charged them with that. If the issue was a possible cotangent then all the horses should have been quarantined in one location to limit the possible exposure but 12 of the horses were whisked away which would increase the probability of spreading any infection.

This whole situation is not sounding right even some of the people commenting on the Union Leader's website are saying things are not adding up. The police and the NHSPCA not talking is odd, from a lot of stories that I see about SPCA's around the country when they go in to take animals they love to have media with them to show the horriable conditions but the only video that has come out is from the owner and no media was brought with the NHSPCA and the cops even blocked people from the road.

i dont agree with the SPCA at all on this one so far.  I just wish the video showed had better quality behind it and showed more horses.  I completely agree with everything you say here.  Especially "If the issue was about shelter then the PD would have already charged them with that. If the issue was a possible cotangent then all the horses should have been quarantined in one location to limit the possible exposure but 12 of the horses were whisked away which would increase the probability of spreading any infection."

I really hope that we can get them their horses back.

[leetninja]

so what shelters are on their farm?

This might be a bit provocative, but I don't really care...

What does it matter if they had ANY shelters on their farm? Are horses 'people' or 'property'? If they're 'property' (which I do believe they are) the Travis' have every RIGHT to do with them as they please.

BTW... do you believe in God and creation? If you do, certainly you realize that God created the horse long before he created the barn or 3 sided shelter, right? Oh wait, what's that? You don't believe in God? Oh, Ok... then you must believe in evolution then, right? Tell me then, how did the 3 sided shelter or barn evolve first so that the horse could evolve? Oh wait, that's pretty stupid too, isn't it?

Gee, I guess horses must have developed some way of coping with cold temperatures...hmm, what could that be? Do they learn to huddle together perhaps? Maybe with their rumps to the wind? Kind of like it's LEGAL in WY or CO? Hmmm, nahh, couldn't be, could it?

provocative - yes
somewhat valid point - yes

but times have changed.  the laws that people/residents voted in are in place so anyone who owns horses has to play by the "rules" that have been established since from what i can tell 1985.  if someone doesnt like the rules then they will have to gather enough support to change them.  the whole situation has nothing to do with my religious beliefs or lack thereof. 

also, even before they were imported to here to the US people were sheltering them.

From Wikipedia:
It is one of the oldest horse breeds, with archaeological evidence of horses that resemble modern Arabians dating back 4,500 years. Throughout history, Arabian horses from the Middle East spread around the world by both war and trade, used to improve other breeds by adding speed, refinement, endurance, and good bone. Today, Arabian bloodlines are found in almost every modern breed of riding horse.

The Arabian developed in a desert climate and was prized by the nomadic Bedouin people, often being brought inside the family tent for shelter and protection.

[slave_3646]

provocative - yes
somewhat valid point - yes

but times have changed.  the laws that people/residents voted in are in place so anyone who owns horses has to play by the "rules" that have been established since from what i can tell 1985.  if someone doesnt like the rules then they will have to gather enough support to change them.  the whole situation has nothing to do with my religious beliefs or lack thereof. 

also, even before they were imported to here to the US people were sheltering them.

From Wikipedia:
It is one of the oldest horse breeds, with archaeological evidence of horses that resemble modern Arabians dating back 4,500 years. Throughout history, Arabian horses from the Middle East spread around the world by both war and trade, used to improve other breeds by adding speed, refinement, endurance, and good bone. Today, Arabian bloodlines are found in almost every modern breed of riding horse.

The Arabian developed in a desert climate and was prized by the nomadic Bedouin people, often being brought inside the family tent for shelter and protection.

I'm not looking to be a jackass, really. My wife and I own a horse and have cared for horses. We like them, we care for them, and we take good care of them. My point is that your horse is a piece of your property, like any other property you might have been led to believe you 'own', and as such you ought to be able to handle and dispose of as you wish. I don't have to agree with how you want to care for and dispose of your property so long as it interferes with my rights. Do you wish to interfere with mine?

Try not to see this in the way that the mainstream does, because they're dead wrong. See this for what it is; a property rights issue.

[Russell Kanning]

am i the only one who wonders more about the colorado situation?

isnt it a little odd to anyone that this is the second time that heidi is being accused of neglect?

maybe .... I dont care if the government has accused them of things many times .... many of us have been accused of disorderly conduct many times ... do we have to prove it false?

[Russell Kanning]

so what shelters are on their farm?

I dont' care and I guess Brian doesn't feel he has to answer you.
There is nothing the spca could say that would make me feel it is right to take their horses. I don't really want to dig into their private lives to decide if the use of force is appropriate.
Even if they were somehow mistreating the animals ... I don't think I have a right to take them away. The horses are the Travis' problem. I support them getting them back from the thugs.

[BillKauffman]

Try not to see this in the way that the mainstream does, because they're dead wrong. See this for what it is; a property rights issue.

Most people believe it is inhumane to mistreat an animal.

[Keyser Soce]

Action item!

We are attempting to collect stories from others who have had negative run ins with the SPCA or Steve. So far we have put up 2 ads in craigslist with approximately the following text.

"Have you been abused?

If you feel that your rights, person or property have been trespassed upon, stolen or damaged by overly zealous animal investigators especially Steve Sprowl, please contact me with your story."

Both ads received almost immediate responses however they were flagged and removed by his supporters within two hours. Please help by replicating this ad on craigslist and forwarding any responses to me or posting if the person replying doesn't mind. I can only assume that the flagger will get their ip banned eventually.

[Kat Kanning]

Hey, Stephen Sprowl has a website http://www.stephensprowl.com/