Brian Travis invaded by bureaucrats

[dalebert]

Why? A human is only considered a murderer, if they kill another human... not another species.

That was exactly my point. I'm arguing against the notion of extending the same rights to other species that we extend to fellow humans. The notion is logically inconsistent. However, I would posit that if another species were intelligent and demonstrated the ability to respect rights, it would be in our rational self-interest to recognize that species' rights as well.

And is not condsidered a murder if defending themselves.

Exactly. The attacker has violated the defender's rights and therefore has violated a sort of understood contract amongst civilized people, i.e. respect my rights and I'll respect yours.

And even this is only a western society more... it would not include cannibalistic cultures where a human could be killed for the purpose of sustenance.

Clearly they don't respect rights. If they tried to eat me, I'd have no compunctions about defending myself with deadly force. I don't think such people would last long in a civilized society. I believe civility would provide a significant advantage over them.

[leetninja]

as you probably all noticed i asnt able to make it today for the shelter party thing - i am on call all weekend and unable to be of much help today and tomorrow.  i work during the week.  if there are more shelters to be built or help that is needed or another organized event to help out brian and heidi please let me know sooner rather than later and i will do my best to make sure i am able to make it.

sorry i coudlnt be there

[turbo]

Top salaries at MSPCA questioned

As the nonprofit Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals prepares to close three animal shelters in reaction to a 25 percent loss in its endowment, advocates for animals are questioning the pay packages of the society's top administrators.

Four of the top five officials at the MSPCA make more than $200,000 annually, according to the organization's latest tax-exempt filing.

"I think that some of that money would be better spent on caring for the animals," said Joyce Godsey, a volunteer at the nonprofit Animal Rescue of Merrimack Valley.

In 2007, MSPCA's chief executive officer, Carter Luke, received a salary and benefit package worth $340,595. The vice president of human resources received $215,723, the chief medical officer received $246,337, and the vice president of development received $202,880.

...

Lou Whitney, the co-owner of DoggieDay, an animal-care service located in the South End, said his business has helped raise more than $30,000 for the MSPCA in recent years but will not participate in any future fund-raising efforts to benefit the society because the money doesn't directly go to caring for the animals.

"We've severed our ties with the MSPCA for this specific reason," Whitney said. "We found the MSPCA to be a place where people were looking to secure financial positions for themselves, rather than focusing on helping the animals. I think that instead of paying out those ridiculous salaries, they should use the money to make sure they're providing a service to the community."

..more

[Friday]

After reading this thread on the NHLA forum, I'm much more inclined to believe the theory that this is an act of revenge on Steve Sprowl's part.  What a complete dick.

Then again, the Travises apparently, just a few weeks ago, went looking for help, saying they were unemployed and could not afford to care for their horses anymore... which seems to conflict with what Brian has been saying on FTL, LibertyConspiracy and YouTube over the past week about having plenty of money for hay to let his horses feed at will, and having $20K that he was planning on spending to build a barn.  So it's also possible that Sprowl didn't instigate this.  It could have been the result of a well-meaning person from Live and Let Live farm reporting that there were a number of underfed horses in Candia. 

I can't find this article on the Union Leader website, but KB Craig apparently copied it onto the NHLA forum on Feb. 17:

Paradis said she knows of about another 40 horses she can't help because she neither has the room nor the money to feed them.

They include a herd of 25 Arabians brought to New Hampshire when their owner relocated his family here last fall to take a new job. The promised job fell through, along with the sale on his out-of-state house, Paradis said. Overwhelmed, the family turned to Paradis for help.

She rescued three of the horses -- a mare and foal and six-month-old weanling -- while the family scraped together enough hay to get through for another week or so.

"We could take four or five more. But we can't take in 25. And there is nowhere else to go," Paradis said.

I'm not trying to defend the actions of the Candia police and the NHSPCA, *or* to sound like I'm condemning the Travises (see the other thread from a couple months ago where I indicated I went there to help Beth build a stable and petted the clearly-not-emaciated horses), but I do think it's important that all the facts be laid on the table, particularly since numerous calls have gone out to make phone calls, donate money, place public officials' heads on spikes, etc.  It seems possible that the reason all those "authorities" showed up at the Travis' farm on Monday to take several of their horses is because, just a few weeks earlier, the Travises told a registered non-profit they couldn't afford to feed their horses. 

FYI, there's more info on this thread on the FSP forum.

Too many freakin' forums. 

[bile]

It could have been the result of a well-meaning person from Live and Let Live farm reporting that there were a number of underfed horses in Candia.

If so it seems odd she would say in the UL article "although some of the horses were a little underweight, none were emaciated and she did not see signs of imminent danger to them."

The whole Live and Let Live farm situation seems to have the most questions.

[John Edward Mercier]

Why? A human is only considered a murderer, if they kill another human... not another species.

That was exactly my point. I'm arguing against the notion of extending the same rights to other species that we extend to fellow humans. The notion is logically inconsistent. However, I would posit that if another species were intelligent and demonstrated the ability to respect rights, it would be in our rational self-interest to recognize that species' rights as well.

And is not condsidered a murder if defending themselves.

Exactly. The attacker has violated the defender's rights and therefore has violated a sort of understood contract amongst civilized people, i.e. respect my rights and I'll respect yours.

And even this is only a western society more... it would not include cannibalistic cultures where a human could be killed for the purpose of sustenance.

Clearly they don't respect rights. If they tried to eat me, I'd have no compunctions about defending myself with deadly force. I don't think such people would last long in a civilized society. I believe civility would provide a significant advantage over them.

My point being is one can not extend rights that are inalienable... since the rights do not originate from us.

But you did hit upon why I asked the original question... an understood contract. Our society (government) determines our perception to some degree of which rights will be upheld, and for which groups.

Actually many civilized societies were to our present perception, not very civilized.

[leetninja]

can anyone give details on the stuff that went on today?  more shelters built? shelter repair status?  another event happening soon?

Did anyone get pictures or video of the remaining horses, land, shelter etc?

[Free libertarian]

There has to be a line somewhere. 

There does? There has to be a line after which it is alright to initiate aggression against another person?

People have rights; animals do not. Animals are property, plain and simple.

People have rights because we are sentient. We understand how the consequences of our behavior can cause pain to other humans. Animals can't understand consequences but they can feel pain.

I believe some animals understand consequences, at least those with an opposable thumb, maybe others too. I'm sure some of you have heard of primates (non homo sapien) that can talk with people using sign language etc.?  I think the gorillas name was Coco ...read about it awhile back, pretty interesting.   l

 

[John Edward Mercier]

There is a place where orcas have learned to 'beach' themselves as part of a hunting technique.
They seem to way the benefit against the risk... as its not prevalent in all pods, but a learned behavior.

[dalebert]

I can't recall the details, but humans have actually engaged in cooperation and "trade" with killer whales and even have had unwritten contracts with them. Eventually it was humans who broke the contract and it left the whales rather perplexed at their behavior. It had something to do with the whales helping whale hunters (different type of whales obviously) and how the humans left the whale for a period of time allowing the orcas to eat the tongue and only the tongue, which the humans didn't care about. Fascinating story.

[stanford]

I'm finally able to sit down and read the thread here. I appreciate everyone's concerns and realize that there are still some mysteries that remain unanswered. One is the question of finances. Without getting into too much detail, Heidi and I keep our money separate. I have my company and she has her farm. She funds her farm with the sales of her horses and supplements it with her income as a programmer.

The market for top-end horses is pretty bad right now, and she has had a hard time selling her stars. However, they continue to eat. Add to that the move and temporary unemployment as she looked for a job here in New Hampshire.

It was a tough few months for her in the late fall until she landed a new job. Things are better now, but she was forced to give up a couple horses that she had rescued so someone else could feed them. That's the connection to Live and Let Live Farm.

So how does a person struggling to feed her horses come up with $20,000 for a legal retainer? My company loaned it to her against the assets of the farm: her star horses.

Once this issue is resolved, she'll have to sell some of her stock to pay back the loan.

[Me]

Brian,

If money was tight and times were tough, combined with asking an area rescue for help, then WHY did Heidi buy ANOTHER horse between September and December?

Why did she leave this horse on the trailer, parked at your "farm" for TWO DAYS before she unloaded it?

Why did she not feed the horse the prescribed diet that she was sent with since the horse had a condition that REQUIRED a special diet?

[slave_3646]

Brian,

If money was tight and times were tough, combined with asking an area rescue for help, then WHY did Heidi buy ANOTHER horse between September and December?

Why did she leave this horse on the trailer, parked at your "farm" for TWO DAYS before she unloaded it?

Why did she not feed the horse the prescribed diet that she was sent with since the horse had a condition that REQUIRED a special diet?

Hey 'Me'

It sounds an awful lot to me like you think you're just the kind of person to force your opinion on somone. Do you believe that people have the right to do with their property what they wish? Or do you think that people ought to do with their property as you'd allow them to do?

[Me]

Ok Slave,

How about this? Maybe I can put this in a way that you'll understand.

Someone seat belts you into a blacked out school bus.

You have minimal food, probably no water, and you are forced to standing in your own filth because you have no where else to go. You live like this for 2 days.

Your yells get no response. You can't lay down - and seeing as how you are a horse you are REQUIRED to lay down no less than 15min every day in order to get true rest.

Then you get taken off of the school bus and put in with others that don't know you, so, like kids on a school ground, they beat you up for not fitting in.

Top that off, if you are not given the right food, your feet get so hot that they burn and your heel bone starts to RIP through the flesh to the outside of your foot.

And the sick thing is, the people who are taking care of you, KNOW you have to have a certain kind of food so this doesn't happen, but they don't care. So they give you exactly what you shouldn't have.

You can't call anyone to help.

[Mike Barskey]

Ok Slave,

How about this? Maybe I can put this in a way that you'll understand.

Someone seat belts you into a blacked out school bus.

You have minimal food, probably no water, and you are forced to standing in your own filth because you have no where else to go. You live like this for 2 days.

Your yells get no response. You can't lay down - and seeing as how you are a horse you are REQUIRED to lay down no less than 15min every day in order to get true rest.

Then you get taken off of the school bus and put in with others that don't know you, so, like kids on a school ground, they beat you up for not fitting in.

Top that off, if you are not given the right food, your feet get so hot that they burn and your heel bone starts to RIP through the flesh to the outside of your foot.

And the sick thing is, the people who are taking care of you, KNOW you have to have a certain kind of food so this doesn't happen, but they don't care. So they give you exactly what you shouldn't have.

You can't call anyone to help.

You've exemplified the emotionality of the alleged situation quite well, but I think it's one that we already understood. What you're missing, however, is the logic. One significant difference between the real story with the horse and your scenario where Slave is in the bus is that the horse is property and Slave is a human; you're equating the two.