Brian Travis invaded by bureaucrats

[bile]

Me, if those claims are true it is on it's face rather unfortunate. However, 1) we don't have the evidence required to prove or disprove your claims, 2) we don't know who you are to verify that you could possibly have such information and 3) you are bringing it up with many people who believe in property rights, that animals are property and disagree fundamentally with the idea of utilizing force to obtain ends in a offensive manner.

There are two debates here. Were the animals harmed or in danger of harm and how? And more importantly whether it is legitimate to use force against the owners of the animals when they had not agressed against anyone or their property.

[Kat Kanning]

So if you were aware of the situation, "Me", what did you personally try and do for the horse?  Did you go to Heidi and talk to her about it?

[MengerFan]

If the allegations are true, then why don't the concerned individuals just buy the horses from the owners? Why do they instead choose to use violence to steal the animals?

[slave_3646]

Ok Slave,

How about this? Maybe I can put this in a way that you'll understand.

Someone seat belts you into a blacked out school bus.

You have minimal food, probably no water, and you are forced to standing in your own filth because you have no where else to go. You live like this for 2 days.

Your yells get no response. You can't lay down - and seeing as how you are a horse you are REQUIRED to lay down no less than 15min every day in order to get true rest.

Then you get taken off of the school bus and put in with others that don't know you, so, like kids on a school ground, they beat you up for not fitting in.

Top that off, if you are not given the right food, your feet get so hot that they burn and your heel bone starts to RIP through the flesh to the outside of your foot.

And the sick thing is, the people who are taking care of you, KNOW you have to have a certain kind of food so this doesn't happen, but they don't care. So they give you exactly what you shouldn't have.

You can't call anyone to help.

I'm not somone's property to treat and/or dispose of as they wish, 'me', Are you? Are the horses that the Travis' 'own' theirs, or aren't they? Are they property, or not?

If you want your rights, you need to realize that you're going to have to respect all of the rights of others. Humans have rights, animals do not. To argue any other way is a step towards a very slippery slope that inevitably ends up with you justifying the initiation of force against another person to enforce your will upon them. Much like the people who refuse to see the 'gun in the room' that govt. is ALWAYS pointing at you, your emotions and cognitive dissidence do not make your point of view true.

[Me]

Who am I?

I'm the former owner of the horse.

I was the one lied to about provisions being made on the property. I was the one that was lied to about the $5000 tractor trailer loads of hay that were supposedly bought from NY. And the farrier who was supposedly flown in from CO to do the horses. And the mare was going to VA for boarding and breeding.

When in fact, none of it was the truth.

I was the one who sent the mare with the feed she REQUIRED to stay sound. Have any of you ever seen a horses foot FALL OFF? And was assured that they understood what she needed and that they'd continue to feed it to her so she stayed healthy. And supplied them with area grain stores, offered them phone numbers to area hay suppliers, and farriers. All of which they declined to be provided that information.

And I'm the former owner who didn't even receive a phone call that the mare had been taken by the SPCA. I had to call HEIDI to find out if she was one of the ones taken.

[slave_3646]

Who am I?

I'm the former owner of the horse.

I was the one lied to about provisions being made on the property. I was the one that was lied to about the $5000 tractor trailer loads of hay that were supposedly bought from NY. And the farrier who was supposedly flown in from CO to do the horses. And the mare was going to VA for boarding and breeding.

When in fact, none of it was the truth.

I was the one who sent the mare with the feed she REQUIRED to stay sound. Have any of you ever seen a horses foot FALL OFF? And was assured that they understood what she needed and that they'd continue to feed it to her so she stayed healthy. And supplied them with area grain stores, offered them phone numbers to area hay suppliers, and farriers. All of which they declined to be provided that information.

And I'm the former owner who didn't even receive a phone call that the mare had been taken by the SPCA. I had to call HEIDI to find out if she was one of the ones taken.

Well that explains your emotional attachment. Do you still own the horse or did you sell it to Heidi? Did your sales contract include provisions that detailed how the horse had to be cared for that were agreed to by both you and her and any other parties to the sale? Or was the horse her property to do with as she saw fit?

And back to the questions I asked you. Does a horse have 'rights', or is a horse 'property'? And do you feel that you have the 'right' to impose your will on somone else against their will if they're doing something that you don't agree with with their own property now, do you?

[leetninja]

Who am I?

I'm the former owner of the horse.

I was the one lied to about provisions being made on the property. I was the one that was lied to about the $5000 tractor trailer loads of hay that were supposedly bought from NY. And the farrier who was supposedly flown in from CO to do the horses. And the mare was going to VA for boarding and breeding.

When in fact, none of it was the truth.

I was the one who sent the mare with the feed she REQUIRED to stay sound. Have any of you ever seen a horses foot FALL OFF? And was assured that they understood what she needed and that they'd continue to feed it to her so she stayed healthy. And supplied them with area grain stores, offered them phone numbers to area hay suppliers, and farriers. All of which they declined to be provided that information.

And I'm the former owner who didn't even receive a phone call that the mare had been taken by the SPCA. I had to call HEIDI to find out if she was one of the ones taken.

Hello.  Saw you posting on the other forums about this horse in particular.  I will be able to find and post your exact words later.  You are popping up here with a VERY different story.  

First of all - you stated that Heidi paid for the horse and that as far as you were told by several other people - she was a VERY good owner with nothing but a GOOD reputation!  You also mentioned still being the registered owner of the horse because Heidi didnt transfer some paper work into her name but that you wouldnt lie and say that she never paid for the horse.  I hope you still stand by that.  Otherwise I just outed you here and now.

Now everything you say about being lied to, tractor loads of hay from NY, a farrier, and breeding/boarding in VA - please, I think it is rather important that you provide some PROOF to back these accusations up.

I saw your other posts about trying to contact Sprowl to tell him about the diet and not getting any response.  How you left several messages and called several locations.  At one point it seemed like you were reassured by another person on that other board that they knew where this horse was and that it had previously been taken care of but you were still nervous about that information being accurate or not.  So if your horse is NOW not being taken care of properly by the SPCA thugs and that piece of garbage named Steve Sprowl i would advise you to place blame for what is happening to your horse then place it where it belongs - with the jackasses that STOLE these horses!

Sorry but this is getting ridiculous!  I am sick of the horse nuts on the other board that are so quick to jump to conclusions about how the people who steal horses, who have a REPUTATION for doing so MUST BE RIGHT and that Heidi is somehow this evil person!  Wake the fu*k up!!!

[Me]

See, Karma has a way of dealing with each and everyone of you. By having you come back as the dog that gets kicked around by the owner because he's "property".

And your little twists are just that, twists. I've posted nothing on here that hasn't been posted anywhere else and in the same format.

And yes, I've been in extensive contact with Steve Sprowl now.

Brian had better hope his wife gets a damn good paying job because she's done in the Arabian industry.

[Becky Thatcher]

I've tried to stay out of this, but I have to admit to being rather saddened and disgusted by people who will take "property rights" to the extreme and say that because I "own" an animal, it is my "property", that that gives me the right to abuse, mistreat and torture said "property" at will.  An animal is not like a car or a stereo.  They are thinking, breathing, living beings that deserve to be treated with kindness and respect.  This whole argument makes me seriously question the character and morals of people who can justify mistreating animals under the guise of  "property rights".  

All I can say is karma, what goes around, comes around.

(My comments, BTW, have nothing to do with Brian, Heidi, et al.  I don't know them, have never met their animals, and as such am completely unqualified to give an opinion on that subject)

[bile]

I've tried to stay out of this, but I have to admit to being rather saddened and disgusted by people who will take "property rights" to the extreme and say that because I "own" an animal, it is my "property", that that gives me the right to abuse, mistreat and torture said "property" at will.  An animal is not like a car or a stereo.  They are thinking, breathing, living beings that deserve to be treated with kindness and respect.  This whole argument makes me seriously question the character and morals of people who can justify mistreating animals under the guise of  "property rights".  

All I can say is karma, what goes around, comes around.

(My comments, BTW, have nothing to do with Brian, Heidi, et al.  I don't know them, have never met their animals, and as such am completely unqualified to give an opinion on that subject)

This is rather silly. No one is justifying 'mistreating' animals under any guise. Either animals have rights or they do not. Either they are property or not. If they are owned, are property, then you have no justification for agressing against owners for what they do with their living property. You may however ostracize them, refuse them business, etc. If you are arguing that animals have rights and therefore can not be owned or be property you must be consistent. All meat eaters, butchers, slaughterhouses, even pet owners are morally and in some cases criminally responsible for their killing and enslavement or imprisonment of animals. If only some animals have rights that needs to be discussed also and some consistent method of determining who/what has rights needs to be created. I have owned everything from fish to horses my entire life. I loved them all dearly. That does not negate my belief that fundamentally they are property unless it can be shown they are deserving of rights as extended to humans.

I would probably argue that higher life forms be treated as young humans in the Rothbardian sense. It is illegitimate to explicitly harm them and you may be morally expected to care for them. If another person felt compelled to "rescue" the child or animal they may do so but at the realization that they will be at some point infringing on the property rights of the care taker and will need to deal with those consequences. (For example trespassing to take the Travis' horses.) I would think you'd also need to show that the child or animal prefers your care over that of the original persons. I believe that would provide the most acceptable social solution and put the incentives and responsibilities on the appropriate people.  Regardless, what happened to the Travis family would still be an illegitimate act.

[Dave Ridley]

i'm not cool with the idea , that you can just treat animals any way you like.... some people (not the travises) seem to be spouting that idea around here.

mistreatment, when it happens, does not justify the aggression of tax-funded intervention.  but I can see it justifying a voluntarily funded intervention.

[leetninja]

Amanda, these posts are all YOURS!  You DEFEND Heidi AND her reputation MORE THAN ONCE.  Now you are lurking here ... what gives ...

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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 01:35 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Exclamation Where is BG?
One of the seized horses was purchased from us in December. We have known about this family for several years and they always came with good reviews from other breeders/owners. They have/had a serious show and breeding program with horses that have some good show titles.

Unfortunately, even though I am still the registered owner of the mare....I doubt I will be able to get her back because she is considered "evidence".

And I have no way of contacting the place she is at to let them know that she is Insulin Resistant and in need of a special diet....for all I know, if she's been on grain since Monday, she may well already be in bad trouble with founder. She was on the light side in December after coming off of weaning a very needy colt, it was also just the condition she generally kept herself in due to her body type, and due to past founder we did not allow her to get heavy. But she was not emaciated when she left us....of course, I do not know what condition she is in now. I did not find out about this until yesterday and it was through a chat site that I found out.

She is a 15.1H bay mare with a black mane and tail. She has roaning on the rear pasterns and heels and a roan spot just past her withers on her back. Her front feet toe in just ever so slightly and one hoof has a higher heel than the other. She has very VERY large eyes and her ears V out just a little. She has not registered white markings but this time of year it looks like she has a small white snip between her nostrils. She has a vaginal tear that is old and was left open (meaning that she does not have a caslicks in at this time) since she was not being re-bred in 08. She may, or may not, have had a green blanket with gold trim on as I sent her with that. Her name is BG Backflash. I have extensive photos from the day I bought her to last year. She also had a 2008 Coggins and Rabies certificate.

If ANYONE knows how to get in touch with the people who have her so that I can get them info on what she needs to eat and find out how I can get her back...please let me know!!!!

Cheers,
Amanda
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 #70  
Old Mar. 13, 2009, 04:43 AM
<3OTTB <3OTTB is offline
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Amanda - do you need help? Please PM me. I have a friend of a friend of a friend........
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Old Mar. 13, 2009, 04:55 AM
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Amanda - I am working on it. Another option is you to call Steve Sprowl of the NHSPCA and give them the info.


I wonder why she bought a horse from you, already having so many, when she had just moved from NH to CO having her CO place forclosed on.
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Old Mar. 13, 2009, 05:33 AM
MistyBlue MistyBlue is offline
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I'd contact the SPCA directly and inform them of the issues. And also contact the owners directly to see if that was one of the mares confiscated. Right now so many people are popping up asking for the location of the horses and the SPCA is the one to ask.
There are quite a few FSers posing as other people trying to find the locations and for the safety of the people fostering the horses it's best to go through the right channels.
There are Free Staters with the same name as mckulley...so to stay safe all around it's probably best to go through the legal channels to get the info out on the IR mare.
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 #73  
Old Mar. 13, 2009, 08:29 AM
gloriginger gloriginger is online now
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Amanda- go to Arabian Breeders network - there are some other breeders that have been in contact with Heidi- you could PM them and get her contact info to find out if your horse was one siezed.
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 #74  
Old Mar. 13, 2009, 08:45 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Mckulley is the name of a long deceased yet very dear dog. It has nothing to do with an FS.... I'm not entirely sure what the org is all about but my guess would be that people should be VERY careful with their segregation tactics based on others personal beliefs.

*****

At any rate, my NUMBER ONE priority is to get info to who ever has BG so she can be fed properly. With in a few days of being on a non-carb safe feed she will start to founder. Hay doesn't seem to be an issue for her...but grain is a big one. And if she's just her typical light condition and they think it's due to lack of feed and use that against these folks, well that's just not fare. And then god forbid if they start shoving the food down her throat... I can't even think about it. But if she is in bad shape, and does need some help, they have to know how to go about doing it.

My NUMBER TWO priority is to find out if there is any way to get her back at some point. I understand that she is no longer "my property" as she was sold. But I am STILL the recorded owner....

My husband is a Police Officer and he is adamant that I do not get involved beyond trying to get information to whoever has her so they know how she can be fed and perhaps if there is some kind of list where I can put my name down to take her if they'll release her.

****

Heidi wanted her because she had always wanted a Backstreet+ daughter. BG is one of his youngest daughters, the line is not a young one. She ALWAYS paid on time and the one time she got behind she caught right back up without any fuss.
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Old Mar. 13, 2009, 08:49 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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I should add that I fully well know that BG was one of the group that was taken. I saw the thread at SE.com that Laurie put up. I called Laurie, we talked, Thank God her colt was not in the group. So I called Heidi and she told me that BG was in the group that was taken.
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 09:15 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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I PM'd 3OTTB with her exact needs and her quirks....I hope it gets to her foster parents.
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 09:27 AM
trubandloki trubandloki is online now
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One would think that if Heidi cared at all about her horses that were being seized she would have told the animal control officers about this mare's special needs requirements. But gee, I guess they are just property, hu?
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Old Mar. 13, 2009, 09:41 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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I would guess that by the time they started taking horses, she probably was not in her right mind. There's not a person on this board that wouldn't be going bonkers if someone came to take their horses. Especially if you believe you're not in the wrong.
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 09:52 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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I'm sorry, this is where my conversation ends. I mentioned this in my first post.

I NEED the foster owners to know of BG's needs.

And if it comes down to her being placed, well, I want to be the one she is placed with.

BG is my sole and only priority in this matter. But I can only do what I'm legally able to do.
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 10:03 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Default BG needs
OTTB said she doesn't know where BG's at so just in case the foster people are here:

BG she needs a Carbohydrate safe feed such as Poulin Grain Carb Safe and PLAIN beet pulp. NO beet pulp with sugar! NO regular grain. NO oil. No sugar treats.

Usually she can have regular hay but if their hay is very rich they'll need to soak it in a barrel of water for one hour, drain water, and feed her the hay. They can't let the hay sit longer than an hour or it will re-absorb the sugar it put into the water. NO ALFALFA!

She can't be straight tied but she can be cross tied. You have to be careful rubbing her neck on the non-mane side because (she came to me this way) she shies terribly.

She's a 1991 mare. I have pictures if they aren't sure they have her.

Amanda
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 10:11 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Arabhorse2, you have a BAD attitude. It's not needed in this already volatile situation.

And for the record, I'm not defending anyone. But I have full working knowledge of how the human mind and system works under times of extreme duress. So I can see why things may not have been said.
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 10:17 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Is there any legal documents on this CO case? I just don't understand why I wouldn't have heard of it....especially when I know other people with good reputations who sold horses to her who LIVE in CO.

Does anyone have this Steve persons phone number?
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 10:19 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Well Arabhorse2, FYI I did send her registration over to Heidi but Heidi has not transferred her into her name yet.

[edit] Excuse me for sitting up since Wednesday trying to figure out how I could have let this happen to a horse of mine.
Last edited by Moderator 1 : Mar. 16, 2009 at 11:48 AM. Reason: name calling
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 #93  
Old Mar. 13, 2009, 10:25 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Look, if anyone has this Steve persons phone number, I'd be most appreciative to have it. PM would be great.

The ONLY reason why I posted on this forum was because I know how nosey and violent it can get here and figured it'd be the fastest way, after working hours, to get info out to who ever has this mare.

I don't need any bull crap from any anonymous poster here who thinks they know the answers to everything. YOU try having this situation on your shoulders with little more ability than to pass information around.

If BG needs a home, I'm here for her. If I can't do anything more than get info to the people who have her, then I'll have to live with that.
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 10:36 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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MistyBlue,

I agree for the most part except.

You can't segregated someone due to their personal belief systems. Not to mention that this whole FS thing is entirely foreign to me and I only found out about it on Wed. It's not like they waive flags, have bumper stickers, or their skin color is different.

And as I've already mentioned, in my community, this person has a good reputation. I've known about her for going on four or five years now. Granted, I did not know her personally, but I knew people who did active business with her. And these were not small time people either.
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 01:31 PM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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I was able to touch base with Steve P. Thank you 3OTTB, I was able to catch him on his cell. He had received an email with the specifics for her feeding and I sent him all of the photos I have of her so they could identify her.

Unfortunately, all I have currently is the fact I'm still her registered owner. But I'm not going to lie and say I own the mare when she was very validly paid for.

However, he knows that if this comes down to needing to find homes, that I will, with out a doubt, be available for BG.
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 03:58 PM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Thank you. Maybe if you could just post how she is after you see her? Or PM me privately?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trishiemo View Post
McKulley1- if the fosters do not know, I will ensure they do tomorrow.I have an IR horse so I know the signs well, I will check up on her!
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Old  Mar. 14, 2009, 11:39 PM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Does anyone have any updates?

I have been told so much disturbing information on the care of BG starting from the second she stepped foot off my farm until the raid. It is so terrible....
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[leetninja]

i'm not cool with the idea , that you can just treat animals any way you like.... some people (not the travises) seem to be spouting that idea around here.

mistreatment, when it happens, does not justify the aggression of tax-funded intervention.  but I can see it justifying a voluntarily funded intervention.

+1 and I have made it pretty clear i do not agree with the argument of "animals are property and therefore people can do whatever they want to them" so i dont think the ideas/beliefs of some members should be a representation of everyone that happens to be a free stater

[John Edward Mercier]

Ok Slave,

How about this? Maybe I can put this in a way that you'll understand.

Someone seat belts you into a blacked out school bus.

You have minimal food, probably no water, and you are forced to standing in your own filth because you have no where else to go. You live like this for 2 days.

Your yells get no response. You can't lay down - and seeing as how you are a horse you are REQUIRED to lay down no less than 15min every day in order to get true rest.

Then you get taken off of the school bus and put in with others that don't know you, so, like kids on a school ground, they beat you up for not fitting in.

Top that off, if you are not given the right food, your feet get so hot that they burn and your heel bone starts to RIP through the flesh to the outside of your foot.

And the sick thing is, the people who are taking care of you, KNOW you have to have a certain kind of food so this doesn't happen, but they don't care. So they give you exactly what you shouldn't have.

You can't call anyone to help.

I'm not somone's property to treat and/or dispose of as they wish, 'me', Are you? Are the horses that the Travis' 'own' theirs, or aren't they? Are they property, or not?

If you want your rights, you need to realize that you're going to have to respect all of the rights of others. Humans have rights, animals do not. To argue any other way is a step towards a very slippery slope that inevitably ends up with you justifying the initiation of force against another person to enforce your will upon them. Much like the people who refuse to see the 'gun in the room' that govt. is ALWAYS pointing at you, your emotions and cognitive dissidence do not make your point of view true.

You still have to make the reasoned arguement why an animal (other than humans) do not have rights?
Or even the origin of your 'property rights'...

[Bald Eagle]

Now, I can reasonably infer that other human beings are as self-aware as I myself am, based on the fact that they have the same physical construction as myself, they appear to be able to think and reason the same as I can, they communicate in the same way, and so on. The vast majority of animals, on the other hand, share none of these characteristics with me. It should be obvious to everyone that animals have a much reduced ability to think, to reason, to communicate with us, or none at all in the cases of most animals. If it's not obvious, experiments have been done to bear this out, testing animals' ability to use tools, to organize, to plan, to memorize, to count and calculate, to recognize themselves in mirrors (as opposed to thinking they're seeing another animal), &c.. Some animals have rudimentary forms of these abilities, but the vast majority have none at all.

Just be careful treading in this territory.
The door to justifying the sterilization or 'euthanizing' of a quadriplegic person with severe congenital brain damage or Down's syndrome as part of a eugenics program is very near, and it's not one I'd care to see opened again.  The U.S. Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of a Virginia law allowing for the compulsory sterilization of patients of state mental institutions in 1927.


It also comes close to justifying lack of responsibility - for anything - because you're pathetic, ignorant, or just plain fucking stupid.
"But - - - I DIDN'T KNOW!" is an infamous excuse of the government losers in Atlas Shrugged.
Apparently some people think that the more ignorant or stupid you are, the more you can get away with scot free because there shouldn't be any consequences / negative reinforcements to punish them and prevent them from doing the same or similar in the future. . . because they didn't know.

If a dog bites me or shits in my bed or  eats my   wine and dinner without my consent, I'll be wary of its future behavior and be ready to stop it or put it down.  I'm sure as shit not going to reward it and aid it so that it can continue on its merry way unchecked.
If an ignorant or stupid human similarly transgresses against me, it certainly doesn't have any more excuse than a dog - especially if they claim to be self-aware, reasoning, sentient, or actually intelligent - such a claim gives them far less excuse.  And I'll be doubly wary after that since humans are capable of being greedy, self-centered and self-serving, destructively ambitious, duplicitous, having agendas, and deception.  Playing the ignorant and stupid card doesn't appear in the rules of my 'game' and trying it just makes you look - ignorant and stupid - for attempting to play it.  That speaks volumes about the type of people they are.  Especially since some transgressions are "one-way" and can't be undone. 
"Whoops, sorry - I was drunk and I thought I had the right of way, and I blind-sided you."  Apologies, money, or imprisonment don't undo the injuries.  An act of negligence can be every bit as damaging as one performed out of malice.

Or, "Whoops, sorry - I was fucking stupid and vindictive and thought I was helping poor defenseless horses, but in actuality they were just fine and I really just fucked over you and your whole family."  It will be even worse if the horses wind up actually being starved and abused at some bullshit 'shelter' or put to sleep 'for their own good' Waco-style by the white knights at NHSPCA.

Oftentimes people overestimate themselves:
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Let the best proceed unhindered - and the worst proceed unaided.
Anything else subsidizes the lowest common denominator at the expense of the best and brightest, and we can see where that's gotten us.
I don't suffer fools gladly.



We have Rights because we're human, and we're endowed by our creator with those Rights - try as the government may to convince us otherwise. 

What then, of creatures that evolve intelligence and sentience, or that we make contact with?  What Rights do they have? 

You/they don't have any Rights that you can't defend.  You/they don't have any Rights that you don't fight for.
All those "unenumerated Rights" in the Constitution? - We have to fight for them and defend them against those who would deny them to us.  Rights must be claimed and asserted.  Taking the infringement of those rights laying down exposes you as a fool whose basic respect, common courtesy and simple human dignity aren't worth regarding, because you don't have the spine to even try to defend it yourself.  You'll be shit on, robbed, and back-stabbed at every turn just like the legislators who voted down HCR6.
Your pride will be flushed down the toilet right alongside your rights and the Constitution.

Then you'll only have what is magnanimously granted to you by your 'betters' - your 'superiors'.  Good luck groveling in the dirt next to the dog.