Brian Travis invaded by bureaucrats

[Bald Eagle]

I've tried to stay out of this, but I have to admit to being rather saddened and disgusted by people who will take "property rights" to the extreme and say that because I "own" an animal, it is my "property", that that gives me the right to abuse, mistreat and torture said "property" at will.  An animal is not like a car or a stereo.  They are thinking, breathing, living beings that deserve to be treated with kindness and respect.  This whole argument makes me seriously question the character and morals of people who can justify mistreating animals under the guise of  "property rights".  

I'm not cracking on YOU, Becky, I'm just rewriting what you wrote to make an interesting observation about different viewpoints that are expressed by different people and on different forums.  I'm STILL trying to understand, but I usually get stonewalled when I ask certain people to simply explain their differing viewpoint and philosophy.  Geez.  It's just a question.

So...
I've tried to stay out of this, but I have to admit to being rather saddened and disgusted by people who will take "pacifism" to the extreme and say that because I am "nonviolent", I will not lift a finger against another human regardless if they abuse, mistreat and torture other humans at will.  A human is not like a car or a stereo.  They are thinking, breathing, living beings that deserve to be treated with kindness and respect.  This whole argument makes me seriously question the character and morals of people who can justify standing by while others mistreat humans under the guise of  "government" or "authority".   

Sometimes I think certain folk would stand around and eat popcorn while watching Kitty Genovese get it over and over again rather than than "use force" to try and stop them.   THAT's disgusting and really makes me wonder about their true moral character and whether or not they truly understand what a sociopath is.

[bile]

http://www.freecolorado.com/2003/11/animalrights.html

A rather well written article on the topic at hand.

[leetninja]

Seems to have gone rather unnoticed - this is rather important now that Amanda is on here screaming bloody murder ... 

Amanda, these posts are all YOURS!  You DEFEND Heidi AND her reputation MORE THAN ONCE.  Now you are lurking here ... what gives ...

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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 01:35 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Exclamation Where is BG?
One of the seized horses was purchased from us in December. We have known about this family for several years and they always came with good reviews from other breeders/owners. They have/had a serious show and breeding program with horses that have some good show titles.

Unfortunately, even though I am still the registered owner of the mare....I doubt I will be able to get her back because she is considered "evidence".

And I have no way of contacting the place she is at to let them know that she is Insulin Resistant and in need of a special diet....for all I know, if she's been on grain since Monday, she may well already be in bad trouble with founder. She was on the light side in December after coming off of weaning a very needy colt, it was also just the condition she generally kept herself in due to her body type, and due to past founder we did not allow her to get heavy. But she was not emaciated when she left us....of course, I do not know what condition she is in now. I did not find out about this until yesterday and it was through a chat site that I found out.

She is a 15.1H bay mare with a black mane and tail. She has roaning on the rear pasterns and heels and a roan spot just past her withers on her back. Her front feet toe in just ever so slightly and one hoof has a higher heel than the other. She has very VERY large eyes and her ears V out just a little. She has not registered white markings but this time of year it looks like she has a small white snip between her nostrils. She has a vaginal tear that is old and was left open (meaning that she does not have a caslicks in at this time) since she was not being re-bred in 08. She may, or may not, have had a green blanket with gold trim on as I sent her with that. Her name is BG Backflash. I have extensive photos from the day I bought her to last year. She also had a 2008 Coggins and Rabies certificate.

If ANYONE knows how to get in touch with the people who have her so that I can get them info on what she needs to eat and find out how I can get her back...please let me know!!!!

Cheers,
Amanda
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 #70  
Old Mar. 13, 2009, 04:43 AM
<3OTTB <3OTTB is offline
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Amanda - do you need help? Please PM me. I have a friend of a friend of a friend........
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Old Mar. 13, 2009, 04:55 AM
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Amanda - I am working on it. Another option is you to call Steve Sprowl of the NHSPCA and give them the info.


I wonder why she bought a horse from you, already having so many, when she had just moved from NH to CO having her CO place forclosed on.
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Old Mar. 13, 2009, 05:33 AM
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I'd contact the SPCA directly and inform them of the issues. And also contact the owners directly to see if that was one of the mares confiscated. Right now so many people are popping up asking for the location of the horses and the SPCA is the one to ask.
There are quite a few FSers posing as other people trying to find the locations and for the safety of the people fostering the horses it's best to go through the right channels.
There are Free Staters with the same name as mckulley...so to stay safe all around it's probably best to go through the legal channels to get the info out on the IR mare.
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 #73  
Old Mar. 13, 2009, 08:29 AM
gloriginger gloriginger is online now
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Amanda- go to Arabian Breeders network - there are some other breeders that have been in contact with Heidi- you could PM them and get her contact info to find out if your horse was one siezed.
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Old Mar. 13, 2009, 08:45 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Mckulley is the name of a long deceased yet very dear dog. It has nothing to do with an FS.... I'm not entirely sure what the org is all about but my guess would be that people should be VERY careful with their segregation tactics based on others personal beliefs.

*****

At any rate, my NUMBER ONE priority is to get info to who ever has BG so she can be fed properly. With in a few days of being on a non-carb safe feed she will start to founder. Hay doesn't seem to be an issue for her...but grain is a big one. And if she's just her typical light condition and they think it's due to lack of feed and use that against these folks, well that's just not fare. And then god forbid if they start shoving the food down her throat... I can't even think about it. But if she is in bad shape, and does need some help, they have to know how to go about doing it.

My NUMBER TWO priority is to find out if there is any way to get her back at some point. I understand that she is no longer "my property" as she was sold. But I am STILL the recorded owner....

My husband is a Police Officer and he is adamant that I do not get involved beyond trying to get information to whoever has her so they know how she can be fed and perhaps if there is some kind of list where I can put my name down to take her if they'll release her.

****

Heidi wanted her because she had always wanted a Backstreet+ daughter. BG is one of his youngest daughters, the line is not a young one. She ALWAYS paid on time and the one time she got behind she caught right back up without any fuss.
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Old Mar. 13, 2009, 08:49 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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I should add that I fully well know that BG was one of the group that was taken. I saw the thread at SE.com that Laurie put up. I called Laurie, we talked, Thank God her colt was not in the group. So I called Heidi and she told me that BG was in the group that was taken.
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 09:15 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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I PM'd 3OTTB with her exact needs and her quirks....I hope it gets to her foster parents.
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 09:27 AM
trubandloki trubandloki is online now
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One would think that if Heidi cared at all about her horses that were being seized she would have told the animal control officers about this mare's special needs requirements. But gee, I guess they are just property, hu?
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Old Mar. 13, 2009, 09:41 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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I would guess that by the time they started taking horses, she probably was not in her right mind. There's not a person on this board that wouldn't be going bonkers if someone came to take their horses. Especially if you believe you're not in the wrong.
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 09:52 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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I'm sorry, this is where my conversation ends. I mentioned this in my first post.

I NEED the foster owners to know of BG's needs.

And if it comes down to her being placed, well, I want to be the one she is placed with.

BG is my sole and only priority in this matter. But I can only do what I'm legally able to do.
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 10:03 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Default BG needs
OTTB said she doesn't know where BG's at so just in case the foster people are here:

BG she needs a Carbohydrate safe feed such as Poulin Grain Carb Safe and PLAIN beet pulp. NO beet pulp with sugar! NO regular grain. NO oil. No sugar treats.

Usually she can have regular hay but if their hay is very rich they'll need to soak it in a barrel of water for one hour, drain water, and feed her the hay. They can't let the hay sit longer than an hour or it will re-absorb the sugar it put into the water. NO ALFALFA!

She can't be straight tied but she can be cross tied. You have to be careful rubbing her neck on the non-mane side because (she came to me this way) she shies terribly.

She's a 1991 mare. I have pictures if they aren't sure they have her.

Amanda
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 10:11 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Arabhorse2, you have a BAD attitude. It's not needed in this already volatile situation.

And for the record, I'm not defending anyone. But I have full working knowledge of how the human mind and system works under times of extreme duress. So I can see why things may not have been said.
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 10:17 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Is there any legal documents on this CO case? I just don't understand why I wouldn't have heard of it....especially when I know other people with good reputations who sold horses to her who LIVE in CO.

Does anyone have this Steve persons phone number?
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 10:19 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Well Arabhorse2, FYI I did send her registration over to Heidi but Heidi has not transferred her into her name yet.

[edit] Excuse me for sitting up since Wednesday trying to figure out how I could have let this happen to a horse of mine.
Last edited by Moderator 1 : Mar. 16, 2009 at 11:48 AM. Reason: name calling
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 #93  
Old Mar. 13, 2009, 10:25 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Look, if anyone has this Steve persons phone number, I'd be most appreciative to have it. PM would be great.

The ONLY reason why I posted on this forum was because I know how nosey and violent it can get here and figured it'd be the fastest way, after working hours, to get info out to who ever has this mare.

I don't need any bull crap from any anonymous poster here who thinks they know the answers to everything. YOU try having this situation on your shoulders with little more ability than to pass information around.

If BG needs a home, I'm here for her. If I can't do anything more than get info to the people who have her, then I'll have to live with that.
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 10:36 AM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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MistyBlue,

I agree for the most part except.

You can't segregated someone due to their personal belief systems. Not to mention that this whole FS thing is entirely foreign to me and I only found out about it on Wed. It's not like they waive flags, have bumper stickers, or their skin color is different.

And as I've already mentioned, in my community, this person has a good reputation. I've known about her for going on four or five years now. Granted, I did not know her personally, but I knew people who did active business with her. And these were not small time people either.
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 01:31 PM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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I was able to touch base with Steve P. Thank you 3OTTB, I was able to catch him on his cell. He had received an email with the specifics for her feeding and I sent him all of the photos I have of her so they could identify her.

Unfortunately, all I have currently is the fact I'm still her registered owner. But I'm not going to lie and say I own the mare when she was very validly paid for.

However, he knows that if this comes down to needing to find homes, that I will, with out a doubt, be available for BG.
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Old  Mar. 13, 2009, 03:58 PM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Thank you. Maybe if you could just post how she is after you see her? Or PM me privately?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trishiemo View Post
McKulley1- if the fosters do not know, I will ensure they do tomorrow.I have an IR horse so I know the signs well, I will check up on her!
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Old  Mar. 14, 2009, 11:39 PM
mckulley1 mckulley1 is offline
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Does anyone have any updates?

I have been told so much disturbing information on the care of BG starting from the second she stepped foot off my farm until the raid. It is so terrible....
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[AntonLee]

I'm guessing that there are a lot of people who don't eat here. . . because last time I checked animals were very tasty.  In order for them to be so tasty, they have to be killed and breaded (I like my chicken breaded)

Just think, that juicy hamburger, so lean and suculent. . . was someone's property, and they killed it.  That poor cow, how dare you evil evil property rights' people.  How dare you kill an animal to eat it.  That animal has feelings, and damn it, it has RIGHTS!  Those cows, these horses, lobsters, snails, rats, ants. . .they all have rights.  They're living organisms!

How was that hamburger?  Was it good enough to violate the rights of that poor cow?  I think so. 

As a matter of fact, weren't blueberries "living" at one time?  Do plants have rights too?  I mean, they do live, and how are we to know if they're sentient beings. . . hell they could be having conversations as we speak.  Sometimes, I swear I can hear lettuce crying when I have a side salad with my hamburger.

Unfortunately, the Travis' weren't herding cattle. . .because no one would give a crap, except maybe Steve Sprowl who seems to be a cow that can stand on two legs.

don't you know?  Four legs good, two legs bad.

  Animals are property, and those who feel so strongly about animal abuse can put their reputations up on the line, hire a rescue team, swoop in and steal the horses.  After all, if you care so much about the animals being tortured then you wouldn't mind spending time in a cell or working off the value of those horses you stole.  You'd save a life!

In my humble opinion, I'm a loving and caring owner of two pets, and I would say that they have many more rights than I do.  They have the right to sleep in the middle of the bed, and to lick my face at 4:30 in the morning to be fed.  They have the right to live a comfortable life and have new toys every month or so.  They have these rights and many more because I allow it to happen in my home.  Someone else might have already skinned them and eaten them, tortured them, or put them down. 

oh but Anton, these were horses not cows.  Cows are for eating, horses are for riding and looking at. 

What a sick and twisted set of definitions we have.  One type of animal everyone can agree doesn't get tortured or killed off, yet some other ones are just fine and dandy to torture, kill, butcher, bread, eat, digest, and shit out.   Isn't that where it started, food?  If I'm hungry enough, I won't care how much I love old Bessie, she's going to provide me milk and flesh.  As a matter of fact, if I were hungry enough anything is fair game besides human and my pets. . . I'd rather not eat things that I don't want to, that includes horses, cats, and lobsters (hate it)

sure, it's just my opinion and that could change if it were down to my survival.  I wouldn't swoop in to save horses unless I was saving them from theft.  In reply to Bald Eagle, you should be ashamed to say that someone here might eat popcorn.  Don't you know those kernels were tortured.   

[Pat K]

See, Karma has a way of dealing with each and everyone of you. By having you come back as the dog that gets kicked around by the owner because he's "property".

And your little twists are just that, twists. I've posted nothing on here that hasn't been posted anywhere else and in the same format.

And yes, I've been in extensive contact with Steve Sprowl now.

Brian had better hope his wife gets a damn good paying job because she's done in the Arabian industry.

This is an outright threat. I bet you and Sprowl are in contact
bullies flock together.

[AntonLee]

http://www.freecolorado.com/2003/11/animalrights.html

A rather well written article on the topic at hand.

agreed, a good read +1 thanks for that.

[bile]

Seems to have gone rather unnoticed - this is rather important now that Amanda is on here screaming bloody murder ... 

Not unnoticed but the very end appears to be a comment saying that they just found out what had transcribed between the selling of the horse and the raid. I'm not claiming one way or the other but it is very possible that IF the animal was treated that way it was not known until after the fact and so explaining the change in language and behavior.

[Bald Eagle]

In reply to Bald Eagle, you should be ashamed to say that someone here might eat popcorn.  Don't you know those kernels were tortured?

I stand chastised.

I guess I'll just stick with a tasty veal parm sandwich.  On a lightly toasted hoagie roll.  With an aspartame laden cola.  And fries.  Fried in . . . real lard.   Mmmmmm.  Lard.

Utz Kettle Classic Potato Chips ROCK.

[AntonLee]

you're my kind of animal rights violator Bald Eagle. . . now I'm starving!

[slave_3646]

I still want to know if 'me' believes it's ok to go around forcing their beliefs on people at the end of the barrel of a gun, a question which has gone unanswered.

[AntonLee]

as long as "me" has freedom, that's all that matters.  That and that all horses should be taken care of to HER richest desires.

Good thing it's not up to me.  I'd like to see horses taken out of barns and put into homes.  Perhaps "me" would like to do the 'humane' thing and build an extra room in her house for the horse.  Of course, the horse would need it's own rest room as it's neither a human man nor human woman.  The horse most likely would need it's own kitchenette complete with a hay blender for making delicious Haytini's and of course it would need a horse sized washer and drier for it's blankets.  I wouldn't settle for anything less than a 32" flatscreen plasma with DVR and cable so that the horse has something to watch (like Mr. Ed!)

It's only humane.

[slave_3646]

as long as "me" has freedom, that's all that matters.  That and that all horses should be taken care of to HER richest desires.

I can hear it now.... 'But it's for the CHILDREN horses!!!

[Tom Sawyer]

i'm not cool with the idea , that you can just treat animals any way you like.... some people (not the travises) seem to be spouting that idea around here.

mistreatment, when it happens, does not justify the aggression of tax-funded intervention.  but I can see it justifying a voluntarily funded intervention.

+1 and I have made it pretty clear i do not agree with the argument of "animals are property and therefore people can do whatever they want to them" so i dont think the ideas/beliefs of some members should be a representation of everyone that happens to be a free stater

I have to say that the definition of property is a problem for me. In the past women and children were thought of as property, as such the man could mistreat them.

I also think that there are many ways to deal with the problem of someone abusing the creatures in their care, besides putting into motion the blunt instrument of the government.

[Friday]

I'm posting this for the benefit of the non-regulars who have been following this thread:

I think there's an important point to be made that some of the people discussing libertarian philosophy here haven't made clear.  Just because you would allow another person the freedom to do something does NOT mean you approve of it, or think it's a decent/smart/rational thing to do.  It's one of the stickiest points to get across to non-libertarians.  Letting people be free means letting them be complete morons and assholes sometimes... *and letting them bear the consequences of their actions*.  If even half of the things that are currently being said about Heidi's horse-rearing tactics are true, word will get around.  Her business will fail.  She'll be forced to give away or sell her horses.  She'll be shunned by her fellow horse-lovers.  The cops and the NHSPCA weren't/aren't necessary for this to occur.  I *think* that's the point that my fellow libertarians are trying to make (at least, I hope it is   ).

For what it's worth, I think cruelty to animals is reprehensible, I don't condone it, I don't wish to socialize or do business with anyone who thinks it's fun, funny or acceptable.  No, I'm not a vegetarian, and I don't consider raising and butchering animals, or hunting them for food, cruel.  Maybe that's imperfect logic; so sue me.  

Me, I sincerely hope that you have been misinformed about how your former horse was treated.  But if, by chance, what you have been told turns out to be true, please come back and let us know.  Or pass it along to the Free Stater who is apparently fostering one or more of Heidi's horses now (per what I read on a horse forum).  It's a small state; word will get around.

[Pat K]

Sandy saved me from having to explain my position,
thanks.


(Well she did much better than I would have and
used no cursing. )

I guess Roger did too but I ain't saying any thing nice about him.