Brian Travis invaded by bureaucrats

[D Stewart]

well, by that standard the pictures on WMUR even "30 pound" later (if I believe that) are no more than a 3 on the Henneke.


Anyway, the reason for my post is to update my post re. the NHSPCA.  As detailed more fully here http://www.nhliberty.org/forum/index.php?topic=2105.0 there are definite connections between the NHSPCA, animal liberation activists active in New Hampshire and state Rep Carla Skinder.   Scary stuff.   I am now of the firm and unshakable opinion that the NHSPCA is indeed pure evil, and that Sprowl is not simply an aberration.  To folks who are closely involved in the Travis case, please be careful out there and watch your back: I've come across some of these animal liberation terrorists before, both in New Jersey and in (Old) Hampshire, and they can be very violent and very dangerous, and employ guerrilla tactics.  As I say on the NHLA forum, we can but hope that these NH folks are more civilized than that.

[Velma]

Which of these conditions require theft? Worms, feces, malnutrition or bite marks? Are all of these not treatable on the owner's farm? Is there no time given for remediation? Guess not.

Well, I guess that's one way of avoiding my question.

I don't remember saying I supported government action.  I am curious about what would constitute reasonable care of the horses.

I wasn't avoiding answering your question. I was asking questions of my own.

Being careful with my wording here....don't want to get  beheaded in the process...

De-Worming - if my memory is correct - a yearly thing.  Not to expensive.  In my state you can do it yourself at a rather low cost.   I had one horse leave my parents property looking much thinner than expected.  He wasn't wormy.  He just wasn't fat.  He had arthritis and it was best to keep him fit and trim.

Feces?  Hmm...ground frozen...well dang - with the years I had horses the one and only time I wasn't told to go out and shovel crap was during the winter.  Why?  Because it was frozen to the dang ground.  DUH!

Malnutrition....  I find it hard to believe that only SOME of the horses were malnourished.

Bite marks...oh good grief!  More than one horse in a pasture...one's tougher than the other.  It happens.

If it were MY horses... I think I would appreciate someone telling me what I was doing wrong before they took off with my horses.  Simple right?  If you can't access my property - send me a letter.  Something to give me a chance to fix the problem if that's the case.

As far as the horses looking tiny...aren't they Arabians?  Not exactly the huge thoroughbreds that many see on the track. 

As usual - all passers by feel they must judge the care of the horses.  God help me if they ever judge the cleanliness of my house...or the fact that I haven't cleaned up the dog poop in my yard for a few days....I'd be screwed.

[Kat Kanning]

"Well the video we have of the horses now is with 30 pounds of weight added but when they were first seized animal experts say you could easily wedge the side of your hand in between the horses ribs"

Can horses gain 30 pounds in less that 3 weeks?  This seems a little farfetched.

[Kat Kanning]

Re worms:  I'd be willing to bet money that 90% of the people in this discussion have worms too.    No insult to the people here, just that most everyone has worms.

[BillKauffman]

I've come across some of these animal liberation terrorists before, both in New Jersey and in (Old) Hampshire, and they can be very violent and very dangerous, and employ guerrilla tactics.  As I say on the NHLA forum, we can but hope that these NH folks are more civilized than that.

You do realize that animal rights activists are being targeted by the same government you abhor has "economic terrorists"?

As "economic terrorism" has been defined under counter-terrorism legislation (essentially any destruction of property aimed at eliciting a change in policy), virtually any form of traditional civil disobedience which involved property damage would qualify today as terrorism, if the feds decided to apply the statutes.

[Russell Kanning]

I don't get it though. If all these accusations of neglect are true, why are they trying to return the horses to Ms Frederick?

they just say it is true .... then ask for your money and compliance
they take people's kids too

[Russell Kanning]

All well and good, but I want to know the truth about this before I promote the case. I wouldn't take their horses and collaborate or pay for the taking of the horses and I would defend their right to keep the horses but before I go out and say, "hey, look at this case of tyranny here" I want to know the truth of the matter so I don't lose credibility.

If you're going to leverage an injustice into justice, you have to make sure the victim is very nearly pearly white clean in the matter, otherwise attempts to leverage it will backfire.

for many of us ... it is hard to know what is going on ... if you don't feel comfortable defending them, since you live far away ... then maybe move onto a different issue

for me it is pretty easy .... I don't think it is right for me to tell other people how to care for their horses. I also do not have the energy to constantly harass the spca guy, but I can get the word out a little, so people know how the government works

[cyne]

This is probably nothing usable as these people do what they want, but the other night, while listening to Brian on Free Talk Live, Brian mentioned that SPCA used the Front Page newspaper story as a Mailer for Fund Raising/Donations for Travis Family Horses' care.

It made me wish there was a way to track or get the SPCA to Account (take it off the Travis bill) for those specific Travis Horse donations they recieved.

When the Michael Vick case was in the news (fighting dogs) HSUS ran an ad campaign for donations "to help care for the Vick dogs."   HSUS never had custody of the Vick dogs and had nothing to do with their care.  In fact, care for the Vick dogs was paid for by Michael Vick. 

Humane societies love newsworthy cruelty cases  because those cases inspire people to send money.   One animal shelter owner in Coos county has been quoted in the newspaper more than once saying that she didn't want to take in animals whose owners can't keep them anymore.  She just wants the abused, the starved, beaten, abandoned.  What she doesn't say is "because those are the most profitable!"   

[cyne]

De-Worming - if my memory is correct - a yearly thing.  Not to expensive. 

More than yearly -  more like every 2 or 3 months. 

Feces?  Hmm...ground frozen...well dang - with the years I had horses the one and only time I wasn't told to go out and shovel crap was during the winter.  Why?  Because it was frozen to the dang ground.  DUH!

Yes.  And then there is mud season when it all starts to thaw and melt...  still too cold to wash the horses but not cold enough to keep everything frozen. 

As far as the horses looking tiny...aren't they Arabians?  Not exactly the huge thoroughbreds that many see on the track. 

I was a little confused at first because the stories said they were Arabians but Brian kept calling them "race horses."
The obvious answer is that Arabians are the primary breed used in endurance racing - that is, cross-country races over 50 miles or more.   

[George Donnelly]

If you're going to leverage an injustice into justice, you have to make sure the victim is very nearly pearly white clean in the matter, otherwise attempts to leverage it will backfire.

I'm living in a country founded by people that didn't pass the sniff test according to their masters. Are you sure you meant to word it that way?

Yes. Nothing against Brian. I like him and I support him. The SPCA / Candia police are entirely in the wrong. I just want to know what the truth is.

[George Donnelly]

All well and good, but I want to know the truth about this before I promote the case. I wouldn't take their horses and collaborate or pay for the taking of the horses and I would defend their right to keep the horses but before I go out and say, "hey, look at this case of tyranny here" I want to know the truth of the matter so I don't lose credibility.

If you're going to leverage an injustice into justice, you have to make sure the victim is very nearly pearly white clean in the matter, otherwise attempts to leverage it will backfire.

for many of us ... it is hard to know what is going on ... if you don't feel comfortable defending them, since you live far away ... then maybe move onto a different issue

for me it is pretty easy .... I don't think it is right for me to tell other people how to care for their horses. I also do not have the energy to constantly harass the spca guy, but I can get the word out a little, so people know how the government works

I don't think it's my business to tell others how to care for their horses either. For me it's not a question of defending them or not (I'm doing it), it's a matter of which tack do I take or how loud I get.

A case where the facts aren't in dispute is a lot more effective for liberty hay-making. Where you have people closely connected with the case claiming that the victim was in the wrong, it muddles the moral righteousness.

I think there are many potential force multipliers for FSPers who have moved, but one of them is  sympathetic folk that haven't moved. In order to get them on the team as effective spokesmen, they need to be well-informed and motivated. It's a basic communication task really.

[Dave Ridley]

what's happening right now, the coverage turning sour, is because the travises aren't talking to the media (if that's true).
Just as it was sour for the government when they wouldn't talk.

Yes there are legal dangers talking to the press but I'd say don't let silence happen to you...
again, here's my guide on dealing with the press

http://www.freestateproject.org/about/essay_archive/mediarelations.php

It's possible the travises were threatened with some sort of retaliation from authorities if they spoke with the press or told anyone they were forbidden from doing so. 

[stanford]

Hey, everyone. I'd like to clarify a few things.

Most of the horses are Arabians. Heidi used to breed show horses, but is getting out of that game because of internal politics. Heidi's breeding program of the past few years have been for racing. The babies you saw in the WMUR video were part of the racing program. These are not quarter horses or thoroughbreds that you usually see at the racetrack. Arabian racing is a much smaller sport, but the horses routinely run a mile or more. We had a track in Colorado where some of Heidi's horses were part of the competitive program. The closest track that races Arabians here is in Delaware. Heidi was about to start getting some of the horses ready for the track when this raid happened.

Worms are common, especially in babies. There were five yearlings together, all of which had worms when we moved here. Heidi has been de-worming on a regular basis and three of the horses are worm-free. The two they took were on a special diet with extra de-wormers, and it looks like they were just about done. Again, worms are a common issue everywhere there are horses and just need to be managed. No horses were in imminent danger.

Bites are common, too. The mares (that's older female horses for you city folk) are in charge of the herd. Like in most species, the older ladies tend to come down hard on the young males. That's exactly what we had here. In the horse business, it's called "food competition", where the mares will decide who gets to eat. Heidi was in the process of moving the two colts from pen to pen to see which groups of mares would allow them some peace. She found a pen with a couple older geldings (for you city folks, that's a male horse that has been...well, you can figure that one out). It is in that pen where they found the colts during the raid, recovering from the bites inflicted earlier by the mares and getting enough food. Again, this is what happens in nature. A breeder's job is to manage the relationships, and that's exactly what Heidi was doing. Is this cruelty?

Ribs. I'm sure we've all been to friends' houses (and perhaps your own) where the dogs and cats are fat fat fat. We all love our animals and pamper them. Well, the same thing happens to the bigger pets, horses. Most people who keep a single or couple horses way overfeed them, which is as unhealthy as overfeeding your dog or yourself. The problem is, this plumpness starts to look normal, and even the vets start to think it's normal. Ribs should not be prominent, but seeing the outlines of ribs on a horse, especially after a hard winter or in the case of worms, requires special action, but is not a cause for alarm. Heidi was taking steps to solve all of these issues in her role as breeder.

Frozen horse poop. Need I say more? The horses had plenty of room to walk around the paddocks, but tend to stay where the food is. We drop the hay bales in different places when we can to spread things out. But when it gets frozen or under snow, it's more difficult to manage. My job this weekend is to take the front-end loader and clean up the paddocks once they finally thaw. It makes great fertilizer.

As far as WMUR, they left me a message on the day of the raid. I called back and said I'd be happy to talk to them. Nothing. I gave them several phone numbers. Nothing. And then I see this piece on the news. They did not try to contact us. They just took the government's line, interviewed the cops and one of the barn owners that is harboring Heidi's property, and didn't even try to get our side. Gretyl, the reporter from the Union Leader, has been fair, talking to us and trying to get the government reps to say something. It's interesting that the affidavit is still sealed, and that the cops aren't telling Heidi where they've taken her horses, but they're glad to show the media, as long as the media doesn't try to contact us.

It's a good thing there's YouTube and NH Underground! I can't imagine what owners went through before the alternative media was able to expose the mainstream press bias.

[stanford]

what's happening right now, the coverage turning sour, is because the travises aren't talking to the media (if that's true).
Just as it was sour for the government when they wouldn't talk.

Yes there are legal dangers talking to the press but I'd say don't let silence happen to you...
again, here's my guide on dealing with the press

http://www.freestateproject.org/about/essay_archive/mediarelations.php

It's possible the travises were threatened with some sort of retaliation from authorities if they spoke with the press or told anyone they were forbidden from doing so. 

No threats, just phone tag. Gretyl from the Union Leader called the night before her last story, and I just didn't check voice mail until the next morning. It was a tough night for us, this being the first time Heidi was arrested. The article said we were "unavailable for comment", but really it was just her article deadline and I hadn't gotten back to her.

WMUR was clearly not interested in getting our side of the story, as they had all of our contact information and didn't even check. They came by the house for their b-roll footage and didn't even knock.

[THEGENERAL]

Hey, everyone. I'd like to clarify a few things.

Most of the horses are Arabians. Heidi used to breed show horses, but is getting out of that game because of internal politics. Heidi's breeding program of the past few years have been for racing. The babies you saw in the WMUR video were part of the racing program. These are not quarter horses or thoroughbreds that you usually see at the racetrack. Arabian racing is a much smaller sport, but the horses routinely run a mile or more. We had a track in Colorado where some of Heidi's horses were part of the competitive program. The closest track that races Arabians here is in Delaware. Heidi was about to start getting some of the horses ready for the track when this raid happened.

Worms are common, especially in babies. There were five yearlings together, all of which had worms when we moved here. Heidi has been de-worming on a regular basis and three of the horses are worm-free. The two they took were on a special diet with extra de-wormers, and it looks like they were just about done. Again, worms are a common issue everywhere there are horses and just need to be managed. No horses were in imminent danger.

Bites are common, too. The mares (that's older female horses for you city folk) are in charge of the herd. Like in most species, the older ladies tend to come down hard on the young males. That's exactly what we had here. In the horse business, it's called "food competition", where the mares will decide who gets to eat. Heidi was in the process of moving the two colts from pen to pen to see which groups of mares would allow them some peace. She found a pen with a couple older geldings (for you city folks, that's a male horse that has been...well, you can figure that one out). It is in that pen where they found the colts during the raid, recovering from the bites inflicted earlier by the mares and getting enough food. Again, this is what happens in nature. A breeder's job is to manage the relationships, and that's exactly what Heidi was doing. Is this cruelty?

Ribs. I'm sure we've all been to friends' houses (and perhaps your own) where the dogs and cats are fat fat fat. We all love our animals and pamper them. Well, the same thing happens to the bigger pets, horses. Most people who keep a single or couple horses way overfeed them, which is as unhealthy as overfeeding your dog or yourself. The problem is, this plumpness starts to look normal, and even the vets start to think it's normal. Ribs should not be prominent, but seeing the outlines of ribs on a horse, especially after a hard winter or in the case of worms, requires special action, but is not a cause for alarm. Heidi was taking steps to solve all of these issues in her role as breeder.

Frozen horse poop. Need I say more? The horses had plenty of room to walk around the paddocks, but tend to stay where the food is. We drop the hay bales in different places when we can to spread things out. But when it gets frozen or under snow, it's more difficult to manage. My job this weekend is to take the front-end loader and clean up the paddocks once they finally thaw. It makes great fertilizer.

As far as WMUR, they left me a message on the day of the raid. I called back and said I'd be happy to talk to them. Nothing. I gave them several phone numbers. Nothing. And then I see this piece on the news. They did not try to contact us. They just took the government's line, interviewed the cops and one of the barn owners that is harboring Heidi's property, and didn't even try to get our side. Gretyl, the reporter from the Union Leader, has been fair, talking to us and trying to get the government reps to say something. It's interesting that the affidavit is still sealed, and that the cops aren't telling Heidi where they've taken her horses, but they're glad to show the media, as long as the media doesn't try to contact us.

It's a good thing there's YouTube and NH Underground! I can't imagine what owners went through before the alternative media was able to expose the mainstream press bias.

Now this sounds more like the truth and we get it from the horses mouth... so to speak.

Brian, you need to put a chattel deed on your horses asap.  They have only taken your horses because of "right title and intrest" they can not take your sweat equity you have in the care for those horses.

Ask your lawyer about it, hopefully he will understand.