Brian Travis invaded by bureaucrats

[Russell Kanning]

and it will keep on happening ... it is going to be a slow process to a freer society

[Goble]

I read this thread over a couple of days, and what bothered me throughout was the sentiment by some, that if one doesn't condone state action, one must, therefore, condone animal cruelty.

[KBCraig]

I read this thread over a couple of days, and what bothered me throughout was the sentiment by some, that if one doesn't condone state action, one must, therefore, condone animal cruelty.

It helps them sleep.

[dalebert]

I read this thread over a couple of days, and what bothered me throughout was the sentiment by some, that if one doesn't condone state action, one must, therefore, condone animal cruelty.

Very good point. I refuted such fallacious thinking in a recent article on Free Keene called Fine Young Cannibals.

[Goble]

It's strange reading all this I'm not sure where I fit in.

I care about human beings and animals, I hate factory farming and cruelty towards animals. I think if I saw someone beating their dog I would probably say something or try to stop it, I couldn't stand knowing an animal is being harmed in my presence. Just like if I saw someone beating their kid or another human being. But I eat meat and therefor I am a hypocrite, I understand. I don't like what the NHSPCA did and do NOT approve. But I care about animals and don't look at them like "property" like I would a car or tool.


I like the idea of stewardship of the land and her creatues not ownership. I think the Native Americans had a better idea of how to appreciate and honor the Earth and all that dwell on her.

I agree with what Mainshark posts but I am curious Joe, what would you do if your neighbor abused their animals? I have had neighbors that did just that and it was sickening. I had to at least secretly feed the poor dear and give it water. It would be chained for days with no shade and no water or food and with only a few feet to move around. I never called the thugs but I can't live in a world where I just let an animal suffer either.

I tried to talk to the neighbor and they said fuck off, I moved but wanted to steal their "property" poor thing and give it a new life. I didn't but not because I didn't want to.

Am I alone here?

Even if you had stolen the property being mistreated, which is wrong, it would be less wrong than sicking the government on your neighbor. Of course, if you had been caught trespassing while trying to free the animal and been shot, as sad and horrible as that would be, the property owner would have been justified in doing so.

Compassion for animals is a very human position. We project our own feelings onto animals and assume they suffer as we suffer. They very well may. If someone was torturing an animal in front of me, depending on the circumstances, I might intervene; possibly even to the extent of standing between the person and their property. But if I do so, I may be struck down and that should be something I'm willing to chance. Sometimes we all do the wrong thing for emotional reasons, we are emotional beings. If Ms. Beth had freed(stolen) the horses in the still of the night, she would have been wrong for doing so, but I could sympathise with desperate actions taken by individuals against other individuals.

I cannot sympathise with government goons being unleashed upon people who did nothing but allegedly mistreat horses.

[MaineShark]

I read this thread over a couple of days, and what bothered me throughout was the sentiment by some, that if one doesn't condone state action, one must, therefore, condone animal cruelty.

It helps them sleep.

No doubt.

Of course, the fact that they imagine such a pitiful argument would actually work, says a lot about the rationality of their usual audience...

Couple it with the fact that some of them are, themselves, guilty of cruel or neglectful treatment of animals, and the layers of psychological pathologies get pretty deep...

Joe

[Keyser Soce]

So private rescue = good...SPCA = bad because they have government ties.

Now you're getting it!

If I give you a dollar, it's a gift. If you send men with guns to take my dollar, you're a thief and he's a hired thug. Just because I want to donate some property to Goodwill doesn't mean the IRS can seize it and sell it at auction.

I'm so glad you finally understand.

[Keyser Soce]

The SPCA can not give help if people do not ask for it. Fact.

Would that it were true. Seems like somebody got a lot more "help" from Stevie than they wanted.

[anthonybpugh]

I read this thread over a couple of days, and what bothered me throughout was the sentiment by some, that if one doesn't condone state action, one must, therefore, condone animal cruelty.

Very good point. I refuted such fallacious thinking in a recent article on Free Keene called Fine Young Cannibals.

Fine Young Cannibals? 

You mean these guys?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7jG8EWr63k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrOek4z32Vg

[MistyBlue]

Now you're getting it!

If I give you a dollar, it's a gift. If you send men with guns to take my dollar, you're a thief and he's a hired thug. Just because I want to donate some property to Goodwill doesn't mean the IRS can seize it and sell it at auction.

I'm so glad you finally understand.

Well, I agree with the second and third sentence. 
However when people donate too the SPCA, it's with the knowledge that their donations will be going to the animals in the most need. If that's animals owned by the SPCA, it will be used there. If it's animals the SPCA is helping out still in custody of their owners, it will go there. 

If someone got more help from Steve (Stevie sound too much like Mr Wonder or Ms Nicks and frankly Sprowl doesn't look much like either one.) than they wanted...it was because either nobody else was helping them or that they refused to admit they needed help. So either way it was a clusterf*ck for the animals.

As living property with the ability to suffer...I have a different opinion than you of this situation as it relates to property rights. I never took the oath so can have a different opinion. Not saying your opinion is wrong...not at all. And I understand the slippery slope problems. But I do wonder that if there is such a strong opinion on the entire property rights issues including living property...then why is nobody seemingly working for changes to that instead of just griping about the way things are now? Why break the laws instead of changing them?

And why break laws that screw up your own "valuable" property? Not stated as in a "they have no right to do this" way but in a "why do something so unreasonable" way. Did they neglect the horses just because they felt they*could* and were pissed that the SPCA and others told them they weren't providing enough care to keep the animals from suffering? Was it a way to try to prove a point?
And if it was, why lie about it? Why not state loud and proud, "Doesn't matter that they're skinny and parasite infested...they're mine and I'll do whatever I want with them."

And if property rights are complete absolutes in *all* aspects at all times...does that apply only to FSP members? Does it not apply to FSP members defacing someone else's property? Because the same couple with the horses seem to have issues with that part of the property rights issues. Their neighbors certainly would agree on that one. 

[MaineShark]

Well, I agree with the second and third sentence. 
However when people donate too the SPCA, it's with the knowledge that their donations will be going to the animals in the most need. If that's animals owned by the SPCA, it will be used there. If it's animals the SPCA is helping out still in custody of their owners, it will go there. 

Really?  It's going to the animals in the most need?

How much goes to pay for thugs like Sprowl?  How much goes to "administrative overhead?"  How much goes to paid lobbyists who seek to pass laws like the ones at-issue, here?  Shouldn't that money be used to help the animals, instead of being used for other purposes?

As living property with the ability to suffer...I have a different opinion than you of this situation as it relates to property rights. I never took the oath so can have a different opinion. Not saying your opinion is wrong...not at all. And I understand the slippery slope problems.

Except "you" believe in enforcing your opinion at gunpoint.  "We" don't...

But I do wonder that if there is such a strong opinion on the entire property rights issues including living property...then why is nobody seemingly working for changes to that instead of just griping about the way things are now? Why break the laws instead of changing them?

Why not break them?  They're words on paper.  They have no magical significance.

They are the "rules" by which a bunch of thugs claim to operate.  Some of us don't want there to be thugs going around attacking innocent people, at all.  We don't just want them to operate by different rules, or attack different innocent people.

Joe

[NJLiberty]

Just a question here. The New Jersey SPCA does not appear to be a volunteer organization, though they seem to accept donations. On their home page, www.njspca.org,  they are accepting donations for what look like bullet proof vests for their officers. According to their website they are "a law enforcement department that deals with cruelty issues...The NJSPCA will always investigate any complaint of abuse or neglect for any animal. Since we are an organization of Humane Law Enforcement Officers, we are equipped to take legal action against animal cruelty offenders."

Their vehicles were parked outside of where I work today. The officers were dressed as ordinary policemen, badged the same way except for their lapel pins, and their vehicles looked identical to police vehicles except they said SPCA and "Humane Police" on the sides.

Are the various SPCA organizations different, or do they all stem from the same parent organization? If the ones in NH bear any resemblance to the ones here in NJ they seem more like animal Gestapo than people ready to help out folks.

George

[littlehawk]

Welcome to The Police State...coming to a town near you. 

[KBCraig]

The SPCA is like the ACLU: there's a national parent organization, but each state organization is autonomous and geared for the circumstances in that state.

In some states or cities, SPCA does have full law enforcement authority. They investigate, get warrants, and arrest people. I think it was mentioned here that NHSPCA and/or Steve Sprowl had pushed for the same authority in NH.

For obvious reasons, that's a bad thing. Their jobs become self-justifying, so when there aren't enough criminals, they create them. It's like, oh, I don't know, letting a specialized law enforcement unit focus on drugs, get their funding from asset forfeiture, and still demand more from the taxpayers because "there's so much they can't do without more officers and funding!"

[mackler]

Why break the laws instead of changing them?

That's a good point.

I'll head over to the law library with some whiteout right away.