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"Let them march all they want, as long as they pay their taxes."  --Alexander Haig

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Author Topic: Lefties coming around?  (Read 2211 times)

BillKauffman

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Re: Lefties coming around?
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2009, 09:16 AM NHFT »

Sounds more like Pragmatism to me. If it works it must be right.

There is a whole school of US philosophical thought around "pragmatism" that John Dewey was at the center of...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatism



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dalebert

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Re: Lefties coming around?
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2009, 03:30 PM NHFT »

You aren't talking about extreme views, you are talking about being in the minority.

That's typically how it's measured. "Centrist" as you describe, is based on have views central to the broader viewpoints. The terms tend to be defined based on what is broadly held, particularly traditionally broadly held.

From the answers.com definition:

Holding especially political views that deviate drastically and fundamentally from conventional or traditional beliefs: extremist, fanatic, fanatical, rabid, radical, revolutionary, ultra. Slang far-out. See concern/unconcern, edge/center, politics.

Now, that bit of semantics dealt with, I see what you mean. I tend to talk about principles in absolutes, with an understanding that there are inevitable fuzzy lines in the application to reality. However, I find the belief in authoritarian monopoly government to be an extreme viewpoint from your own meaning for the word. That a single monopoly on violence will resolve any problems strikes me as absolutely absurd notion. Consolidations of power typically result in abuse. I think if we decide that we want a civilized society where we respect each other and want to achieve as much political equality as possible, there is no logic in creating exceptions in what we normally consider to be civilized behavior. We shouldn't make elite classes of people who get a free pass doing things that we would consider transgressions by anyone else. If someone wants to say that one class of people can steal or kidnap, etc. while considering it illegal for everyone else, I want to hear a VERY good explanation for that. I want to hear how that could be pragmatic at all. I have yet to hear such an explanation. Generally I get cop-out answers like "it's always been that way" and "that's the only way we can have a civilized society" but those claims have not been proven to me. I see very violent societies with massive abuse wherever there is an authoritarian monopoly government. I see all the problems going strong that are supposed to be addressed by governments-- crime, poverty, car accidents, wars, terrorism. Applying the same standards of behavior to everyone doesn't seem like an extreme viewpoint at all. It's just drastically different from our violent histories, and we should be looking for something different.
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BillKauffman

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Re: Lefties coming around?
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2009, 04:25 PM NHFT »

Quote
I find the belief in authoritarian monopoly government to be an extreme viewpoint from your own meaning for the word. That a single monopoly on violence will resolve any problems strikes me as absolutely absurd notion. Consolidations of power typically result in abuse.

Me thinks you got it wrong.

The best that we can hope for when we give up on "might makes right" which is arbitrary force is not being subject to arbitrary rule.
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djbridgeland

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Re: Lefties coming around?
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2009, 05:01 PM NHFT »

Walked around Downtown Manchester today, and saw several protest going on.  A couple of guys where holding antiwar signs, but most likely  coming from a lefist viewpoint.  Then there was one in front a Bank of America.  Someone holding a sign saying "Greed is Bad."  Didn't get a chance to grab their flier.
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Caleb

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Re: Lefties coming around?
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2009, 10:05 PM NHFT »

You aren't talking about extreme views, you are talking about being in the minority.  Those are very different things.  Belief in slavery - particular based on the binary of skin color - is an extreme view even if everyone subscribed to it.

I agree with you.  But now we've lost any ability to define "extreme" views; it's only what seems extreme to each person.  My views would seem "extreme" to most people. To me, they are normal and society is extreme.

- I think it is extreme to tell people, under pain of being locked in a cage, that they must pay money (taxes) to a group of people so that they may do things that the person finds morally repugnant.

- I think it is extreme to use wealth to create terrifying weapons of mass destruction.

- I think it is extreme to lock people in a cage because they smoked a plant.

- I think it is extreme to set up dictators who rule their people ruthlessly, merely because that particular dictator happens to support "American interests"

- I think it is extreme to offer puppet governments loans at interest, with strings attached demanding that they enslave their population.

- I think it is extreme to pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth.

- I think it is extreme to support a monetary system, the sole purpose of which is the exploitation of the many to preserve the shameful luxury of the few.

- I think it is extreme to take money from the common man and give it as a bailout to a crooked banker.

- I think it is extreme to bomb anyone for any reason.

There's lots more that I think is extreme. The other side of that is this:  My extremely sane views are considered "extreme" by the true extremists. So simply defining yourself as "against extremism" is pretty much meaningless.
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Pat K

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Re: Lefties coming around?
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2009, 01:00 AM NHFT »

Hello Caleb  :hello:

You extremist bastard you. ;D
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Lloyd Danforth

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Re: Lefties coming around?
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2009, 07:24 AM NHFT »

You aren't talking about extreme views, you are talking about being in the minority.  Those are very different things.  Belief in slavery - particular based on the binary of skin color - is an extreme view even if everyone subscribed to it.

I agree with you.  But now we've lost any ability to define "extreme" views; it's only what seems extreme to each person.  My views would seem "extreme" to most people. To me, they are normal and society is extreme.

- I think it is extreme to tell people, under pain of being locked in a cage, that they must pay money (taxes) to a group of people so that they may do things that the person finds morally repugnant.

- I think it is extreme to use wealth to create terrifying weapons of mass destruction.

- I think it is extreme to lock people in a cage because they smoked a plant.

- I think it is extreme to set up dictators who rule their people ruthlessly, merely because that particular dictator happens to support "American interests"

- I think it is extreme to offer puppet governments loans at interest, with strings attached demanding that they enslave their population.

- I think it is extreme to pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth.

- I think it is extreme to support a monetary system, the sole purpose of which is the exploitation of the many to preserve the shameful luxury of the few.

- I think it is extreme to take money from the common man and give it as a bailout to a crooked banker.

- I think it is extreme to bomb anyone for any reason.

There's lots more that I think is extreme. The other side of that is this:  My extremely sane views are considered "extreme" by the true extremists. So simply defining yourself as "against extremism" is pretty much meaningless.

See!  Ya mention Lefties a coming around and one shows up!
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Sam A. Robrin

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Re: Lefties coming around?
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2009, 09:58 AM NHFT »

People who use the word "extremist" are just spouting "extry mist" to obscure their true intentions . . .
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Caleb

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Re: Lefties coming around?
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2009, 09:30 PM NHFT »

Hi Pat!  :wave:
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Lloyd Danforth

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Re: Lefties coming around?
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2009, 09:34 PM NHFT »

Step Dad!
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Pat McCotter

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Re: Lefties coming around?
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2009, 01:57 AM NHFT »

Hi Caleb!  :wave: ;)
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David

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Re: Lefties coming around?
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2009, 09:32 AM NHFT »

Welcome Chris.   :)
I agree with Rand on the one you quoted;  "I'm not saying you should never choose to help anyone, rather that you are best able if no-one is forcing you to."   :)  Forced charity rubs me the wrong way, and exhausts my willingness to help others knowing I am being taxed through the nose to pay for it. 

This is primarily a libertarian activist website.  Started by two freestaters, as an apolitical alternative to the other discussion forums widely populated by libertarian activists.  Almost all here oppose the gov't not for what it says, but what it does.  The gov't is too aggressive and violent, both in the obvious aggression, and more importantly, the hidden aggressions that the gov't is far more likely to get away with. 
I believe the ends will be dictated by the means, and that a great deal of harm has been done under the belief that the end justifies the means. 
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