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[Russell Kanning]

"People --good people, on our side-- die when certain things get declassified. Sources disappear, making the quest for truth rather impossible."


I don't think anyone on the inside is on my side .... I am on the outside

[Kat Kanning]

Weldon: Atta Papers Destroyed on Orders
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050916/ap_on_go_co/sept11_hijackers
By DONNA DE LA CRUZ, Associated Press Writer 15 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - A
Pentagon employee was ordered to destroy documents that identified Mohamed Atta as a terrorist two years before the 2001 attacks, a congressman said Thursday.
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The employee is prepared to testify next week before the Senate Judiciary Committee and was expected to name the person who ordered him to destroy the large volume of documents, said Rep. Curt Weldon (news, bio, voting record), R-Pa.

Weldon declined to name the employee, citing confidentiality matters. Weldon described the documents as "2.5 terabytes" ? as much as one-fourth of all the printed materials in the
Library of Congress, he added.

A Senate Judiciary Committee aide said the witnesses for Wednesday's hearing had not been finalized and could not confirm Weldon's comments.

A message left Thursday with a Pentagon spokesman, Army Maj. Paul Swiergosz, was not immediately returned.

Weldon has said that Atta, the mastermind of the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and three other hijackers were identified in 1999 by a classified military intelligence unit known as "Able Danger," which determined they could be members of an al-Qaida cell.

On Wednesday, former members of the Sept. 11 commission dismissed the "Able Danger" assertions. One commissioner, ex-Sen. Slade Gorton, R-Wash., said, "Bluntly, it just didn't happen and that's the conclusion of all 10 of us."

Weldon responded angrily to Gorton's assertions.

"It's absolutely unbelievable that a commission would say this program just didn't exist," Weldon said Thursday.

Pentagon officials said this month they had found three more people who recall an intelligence chart identifying Atta as a terrorist prior to the Sept. 11 attacks.

Two military officers, Army Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer and Navy Capt. Scott Phillpott, have come forward to support Weldon's claims.

[Caleb]

I read a great article the other day by Cynthia McKinney questioning the government's role in 9-11.  Hopefully I'll post it in the next few days.  But what struck me was how desperate the government is to squash any talk about the subject.  This, to me, is suspicious behavior.  I mean, if someone suggested that I personally was responsible for 9-11, I would laugh at it because its obviously foolish.

It seems to me that only the guilty have to squash criticisms that they did something.

Cynthia McKinney's congressional seat was targeted by the same Republicans who targeted Bob Barr's seat.  Both lost in the primary.  Barr, a staunch conservative, was an outspoken critic of the Patriot Act.  He currently spends his time doing the talk radio rounds and working for the ACLU fighting the Patriot Act in the courts.

Why did the administration target these two?  What are they afraid of?

Caleb

[KBCraig]

I mean, if someone suggested that I personally was responsible for 9-11, I would laugh at it because its obviously foolish.

And yet, if you were a government official and laughed it off, that denial would be "proof" for the conspiracy theorists.

Kevin

[mulp]

"People --good people, on our side-- die when certain things get declassified. Sources disappear, making the quest for truth rather impossible."


I don't think anyone on the inside is on my side .... I am on the outside

That statement stood out like a red flag to me, too.

I go a step further and note the contradiction of justifying the government keeping secrets, while also believing it isn't on my side and is engaged in conspiracies against me.

Nothing undermines trust in government more than governments keeping any secrets for any reasons because the secrets creates the conspiracy theories that cause one to distrust government.

I recall a scifi story about a republican society that didn't have secrets and that was completely open being attacked by an enemy who had joined the society to collect information for the attack.? The story focused on the nature of society, and then in the epilogue the spy is captured and held by the one he befriended.? The spy asks how they could win when he knew all their plans, and the response was, "well, we all knew that you had left and we all knew what we told you, so we all knew what you knew about our weaknesses so we all knew how you would attack us, so we defended against your obvious attack."

That reminds me of the war game before Iraq where the adversary defeated Rumsfeld's wetdream electronic battlefield in two days by not using any radios, passing all commands by hand, and by not using the technology he had, but relying on guerilla techniques.? He was ruled to have violated the rules of engagement and the game was reset, and he was told that he had to lose the battle according to rules of the game.? Afterward, they proclaimed the war game to have proved the effectiveness of the electronic battlefield or whatever.

If I were magically president, I would eliminate all classified information and announce every weakness in every aspect of America, and then wait for the conspiracy theories to fly on both sides.? "He has just told us of the failed attempt to overthrow our government, which we suspected, but he must now have a double secret plan to overthrow us, or trick us into abdicating power...."? Meanwhile the local conspiracy theorist would be claiming that there is double secret secret conspiracy to classify information of an operation to take power and the revealing of all the secret information is to hide the conspiracy in the mountain of revealed secrets.

What I'm surprised at is the lack of conspiracy theories around the destruction of New Orleans.? It should be clear that this was directed by Osama.? At the top of FEMA's list of greatest risks, issued in Jan 2001, was NYC terrorist attack, flooding of New Orleans, and finally the big quake in LA.? Knowing the nature of the environment around New Orleans and the increasing vulnerability, I told all that would listen that the next best target for Osama was to have a team in New Orleans during hurricane season that would blow up the levees in some critical spots and that would be the end of a symbolic icon.? As we haven't heard a claim of responsibility, I can only conclude that they decided to blow it up on Sep 11th for symbolic reasons and they weren't able to plant the bombs in time to create the necessary new reel footage, and the surrounding storm damage inhibited their ability to blow up things outside of New Orleans.? Who set all those fires in New Orleans?? Just consider all the water around-it would take man made firestarting materials to get water logged building to burn.? Definitely the work of terrorists.? Why did Bush take so long to act.? Clearly so that the terrorists had the full opportunity to be caught in some clear act of violence so that Bush would be able to gain the support to invade Iran.

;-)

[Kat Kanning]

I sent Kat the two DVD documentaries, Loose Change & 9/11 In Plane Site-The Director's Cut last week.

I hope all of you live near Kat, or at least can watch those two films soon.

Your skepticism will be deluded after watching both of them...

I'm not at all impressed with the 9-11, In plane site video, and I believe the government did it!

[Michael Fisher]

I sent Kat the two DVD documentaries, Loose Change & 9/11 In Plane Site-The Director's Cut last week.

I hope all of you live near Kat, or at least can watch those two films soon.

Your skepticism will be deluded after watching both of them...

I'm not at all impressed with the 9-11, In plane site video, and I believe the government did it!

LOL

[Caleb]

And yet, if you were a government official and laughed it off, that denial would be "proof" for the conspiracy theorists.

But Kevin, you're proving my point.? Because they don't laugh it off.? Let me give you an example.

A paranoid wacko named David Ickes accused Senator McCain of being a Reptilian space alien.? When McCain was informed, he did the only thing you can do when faced with such nonsense:? He laughed at it.? He didn't target Mr. Ickes for some government probe or try to destroy his career.? Mr Ickes still flies worldwide promoting these theories, and as far as I can tell, Mr. McCain hasn't done anything at all to try to stop it because he's not threatened by it in the least.?

But the administration doesn't laugh when accused.? Early after 9-11, Mr. Bush informed us somberly that we shouldn't even consider any sort of conspiracy theories regarding 9-11.? Why even mention it?

Then there's Senator Charles Shumer, who wants to criminalize such speculations.? He introduced a bill (HR 2580) in response to conspiracy theories regarding the Oklahoma City bombing.? His bill would seek to punish someone with five years in prison for engaging in "unseemly speculation" or publishing "baseless conspiracy theories regarding the Federal government of the United States".

Does it seem to you that these gentlemen are laughing it off like McCain did the reptilian space alient comments?

So in conclusion, let me throw a wild conspiracy theory at you ...

In 1933, the German Reichstag parliament building was burned.? Officially, no one really knows who burnt it, as I was informed at this website:? http://www.aviewoncities.com/berlin/reichstag.htm? A brief quote from the website:

It is to date still unclear who started the fire, but the Communists were blamed. It gave a boost to Hitler's Party, the NSDAP, who would soon come to power.

Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say ... If it looks like a skunk and smells like a skunk, it's probably a skunk.? So ... if Hitler's party benefitted from it, I'm going to say Hitler probably arranged for the Reichstag to be burned.? I know, I know.? Ridiculous.

If it looks like a skunk, and smells like a skunk ...

Has the fruit of 9-11 singed your nosehairs yet?? Patriot Act.? War on Terrorism (which Cheney says will last "our lifetime").? American citizens are arrested on American soil and held without without being charged as "enemy combatants", and denied the writ of Habeus Corpus, as guaranteed by the Constitution.? We have a war in Iraq.? A War in Afganistan.? Promis software patrols emails.? All in the name of security.?

If it looks like a skunk, and smells like a skunk ...

Caleb

PS:  I have a little running signature, but I think it bears repeating here:  "Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day; but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period, and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate and systematical plan of reducing us to slavery."

[JonM]

I won't mind if the war on terror lasts for Cheney's lifetime, I think he's not one for the over portion of the over/under bet on the actuarial tables.  So you're saying the attack against America was a bi-partisan affair?

[Russell Kanning]

absolutely
waco - Clinton
oklahoma city - clinton
9/11 - Bush

seems to be the organizations not necessarily the white house

[JonM]

So Timmy was really a government agent and not an anti-government nutjob?

As for the faults of Janet Reno, don't forget Ruby Ridge and Elian Gonzalez.  I'm not sure how to pin those on on another group, but I'm sure someone else can.

[Russell Kanning]

I think that the atf blew it up .... I am not sure what Tim M part was.

[joeyforpresident]

So Kat, I'm guessing you received the two DVDs?

Will you still try to make public showings of them?

[Kat Kanning]

What about the numerous experts who say there's no way kerosene can melt steel?

There's about 1,500-2,000F difference (depending on composition) between "melt" and "soft as putty".

I watched a blacksmith working the other day and asked him some questions (horray for homeschool field trips)...a couple observations:

1.  Only the part of the metal which was directly in the hottest part of the stoked coal fire softened enough for him to be able to shape the metal. 
2.  He was working on a 1/4" piece of steel stock.  He said he could possibly work much larger pieces of metal, but he would need to heat it for so long, it just wasn't practical. 

How long would it take to heat an extra large steel girder in an "almost out" fire (according to the fire department) to even melt it to the soft pliable stage?  How come no other steel buildings with fires that have burned much longer have never collapsed?

Even if those enourmous steel support columns did somehow melt in one hour, how would that break them in the rest of the building?  Why weren't columns left standing way up in the air?

[Kat Kanning]

I sent Kat the two DVD documentaries, Loose Change & 9/11 In Plane Site-The Director's Cut last week.

I hope all of you live near Kat, or at least can watch those two films soon.

Your skepticism will be deluded after watching both of them...

I'm not at all impressed with the 9-11, In plane site video, and I believe the government did it!

We watched Joey's CD the other day, and it wasn't the movie I was thinking of.  It's a good one.  I was doubtful about the flashes before the planes hit the towers.  I got the 9-11, America Remembers cd .... the CNN recap of the whole thing.  I watched it, slowing it down frame by frame in places....those flashes are clearly visible on the original CNN footage.  Not that that in itself means there was a conspiracy, but people have claimed that they used doctored footage, which as far as I can tell, they didn't.