9-11 was an inside job

[Insurgent]

One of the most damning pieces of evidence is the inside trading that happened with many stocks, particularly on United and American Airlines stocks, in the days immediately preceding 9/11.

Some good reports that line up the dots:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/10_09_01_krongard.html

http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/stockputs.html

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/12_06_01_death_profits_pt1.html

[MaineShark]

Caleb & Insurgent...

I believe mvpel was referring to "facts" regarding the theory that the various buildings fell due to some factor other the aircraft impacts.

I don't think either he or I were questioning the possibility that the government could be responsible, but rather the methodology they might have used...

Joe

[jaqeboy]

Insurgent often makes the point that it's very difficult or almost pointless to argue about how the collapse occurred, since the physical evidence was spirited away (and hence nothing to use as evidence in court) and there's hardly anything to go on but video evidence.

In Improbable Collapse, (this Wednesday in Concord you'll be able to cross-examine the researcher and filmmaker behind it), Steven Jones (physics prof. at BYU) details his findings on one piece of physical evidence that did get out of the collapse site. Michael Berger (the filmmaker) told us Friday night that he was instrumental in getting that physical sample to Jones. It's little to go on, again since the physical evidence was sequestered from forensic examiners and taken off and melted down offshore (That's one item that raises suspicion, of course - why would "they" make darn sure no one COULD examine the physical evidence?)

So, this is the fascination with the collapses - can researchers solve the mystery given only the  remaining documentary evidence (and one tiny physical specimen that Jones got his hands on)? One other remaining documentary piece is the seismological reports. They eyewitness reports of sounds (of explosions?) is also very interesting and one of the most powerful eyewitnesses is William Rodriquez, who was a maintenance man in the WTCs 1 & 2. He reports many interesting observations (eg: explosions in the basement) - I'm sure Mike Berger can be questioned on that Wednesday night.

I can't emphasize enough how valuable an appearance this is for those in our area who are "9-11 curious" - Wednesday night in Concord at the Best Western. Come at 6PM to help set up, movie starts at 7PM, Q&A with Mike Berger afterwards. If you're truly a knowledge-seeker, this is a HUGE opportunity. Even if you are a skeptic and arguer, it's still an opportunity - to prove "9-11 Truthers" wrong by the force of your information and strong arguments, or to become better informed in your opinions by gleaning information from a top researcher. Methinks this forum (the movie showing / Q&A) would be THE place to become better informed to argue, if that is your choice of methods to deal with one of the greatest horrors and mysteries that we have ever seen and has shaped our world in the most profound way ("...the Demolition of Our Republic" as Michael Berger says).

On top of all this, it's free (donations appreciated to cover costs) and is a way to outreach to the larger community that is concerned about justice and loss of liberties in America. Be there or be (taken less seriously in this discussion) square!

Info on the Wednesday night showing in Concord (Best Western): Merrimack Valley 911 Truth: http://merrimackvalley911truth.org - still have more questions for Mike Berger? ---

Info on the Thursday night showing in Dover (Friends Meeting House): Northern New England 9/11 Truth: http://9-11.meetup.com/284/ - still more questions? ---

Info on the Sunday afternoon showing in Wilton (Wilton Town Hall Theater - big screen): http://www.wiltontownhalltheatre.com/

There are other area showings if you have scheduling issues or want to meet and network with other folks. Cambridge at the Democracy Center is always a good time. We could meet up and carpool down for that Saturday evening. Info: http://boston911truth.org/ [Note: libertarians afraid of the word "democracy" - stay away!  ] - also check out the films the Boston Sons of Liberty are showing there on the 29th of April - another good chance to carpool down together and have a good time networking with the Boston group.

Don't be square and just sit at the tube and argue - go to the vid, meet the filmmaker, ask questions, become better informed and aware.

[jaqeboy]

BTW, there is talk of a big 9-11 Truth conference in Manchester this year on September 11th. Mike Berger may know more about it to share with us - I think it's still in the planning stages, though. The idea would be to be in town and bird-dog presidential candidates about re-opening the investigation.

[MaineShark]

Insurgent often makes the point that it's very difficult or almost pointless to argue about how the collapse occurred, since the physical evidence was spirited away (and hence nothing to use as evidence in court) and there's hardly anything to go on but video evidence.

People sure seem to have filled that void with a lot of notions of what happened...

I can't emphasize enough how valuable an appearance this is for those in our area who are "9-11 curious" - Wednesday night in Concord at the Best Western. Come at 6PM to help set up, movie starts at 7PM, Q&A with Mike Berger afterwards. If you're truly a knowledge-seeker, this is a HUGE opportunity. Even if you are a skeptic and arguer, it's still an opportunity - to prove "9-11 Truthers" wrong by the force of your information and strong arguments, or to become better informed in your opinions by gleaning information from a top researcher. Methinks this forum (the movie showing / Q&A) would be THE place to become better informed to argue, if that is your choice of methods to deal with one of the greatest horrors and mysteries that we have ever seen and has shaped our world in the most profound way ("...the Demolition of Our Republic" as Michael Berger says).

I think I would be a lot more inclined to attend something like this if I thought there would be anything new to hear.  I wouldn't want to spend my time, just to listen to arguments that were old when they were new.

Joe

[jaqeboy]

Insurgent often makes the point that it's very difficult or almost pointless to argue about how the collapse occurred, since the physical evidence was spirited away (and hence nothing to use as evidence in court) and there's hardly anything to go on but video evidence.

People sure seem to have filled that void with a lot of notions of what happened...

I think it's pretty natural to speculate on what did happen, if one is not inclined for some reason or other to accept the standard story. I believe it's a bit of postulating a theory to explain observations, then following that with research to determine if that theory can be supported. There are some who are unscientific in their approach due to lack of training, but the movie coming up Wed. night, IC, interviews scientists, some involved with Scholars for 911 Truth (http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/), and doesn't venture into any wild-eyed speculation.

Some of the video evidence leads to some interesting speculation, for example, the appearance of reddish-orange hot molten metal pouring from the side of the building (WTC2, I believe) at a high level (Jones and others believe it to be molten metal from thermite/thermate cutter charges) or the explosive puffs jetting out of windows progressively from floors way below the collapse zone. Makes you wonder, eh?

I can't emphasize enough how valuable an appearance this is for those in our area who are "9-11 curious" - Wednesday night in Concord at the Best Western. Come at 6PM to help set up, movie starts at 7PM, Q&A with Mike Berger afterwards. If you're truly a knowledge-seeker, this is a HUGE opportunity. Even if you are a skeptic and arguer, it's still an opportunity - to prove "9-11 Truthers" wrong by the force of your information and strong arguments, or to become better informed in your opinions by gleaning information from a top researcher. Methinks this forum (the movie showing / Q&A) would be THE place to become better informed to argue, if that is your choice of methods to deal with one of the greatest horrors and mysteries that we have ever seen and has shaped our world in the most profound way ("...the Demolition of Our Republic" as Michael Berger says).

I think I would be a lot more inclined to attend something like this if I thought there would be anything new to hear.  I wouldn't want to spend my time, just to listen to arguments that were old when they were new.

Joe

I believe what Mike Berger offers is very up-to-date research, so not a lot of "old" at this upcoming event. You'll probably be hearing a lot of stuff that is "hot off the press." Given that the 9-11 attacks are the nexus of the huge attacks on our liberties ("after 9/11, everything is different"), it's one of the most important things for libertarians to come to grips with. If it was an inside job, for example, it would be important to find out who were the insiders and bring them to justice. This would, of course, shake a lot of trees - as the possibility of it being an inside job shakes a lot of peoples' psyches. I'm still with the philosophy of "Ye shall know the truth and the truth will set you free." It will be worth your time, trust me.

Jack

[jaqeboy]

How about you, can you name one of the easily-verifiable facts that Insurgent referred to?

I guess I'm not really involved in the dialog that you and insurgent are having. I'm trying to promote the "Ye shall know the truth..." thing by helping make the connection between the curious (us) and the well-informed (Mike Berger). I look at his upcoming visit as a tremendous opportunity for the curious. I haven't read a lot of the back messages on this thread, so not sure what you and insurgent's beefs are.

[MaineShark]

People sure seem to have filled that void with a lot of notions of what happened...

I think it's pretty natural to speculate on what did happen, if one is not inclined for some reason or other to accept the standard story. I believe it's a bit of postulating a theory to explain observations, then following that with research to determine if that theory can be supported. There are some who are unscientific in their approach due to lack of training, but the movie coming up Wed. night, IC, interviews scientists, some involved with Scholars for 911 Truth (http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/), and doesn't venture into any wild-eyed speculation.

It's a large leap from distrusting the government, to saying that "fire has never melted steel, in the history of the world" and such nonsense.

Isn't "Scholars for 911 Truth" the group that claims that they are right and sctructural engineers are wrong, because every structural engineer in the country is secretly working for the government?  Hardly scientific...

I think I would be a lot more inclined to attend something like this if I thought there would be anything new to hear.  I wouldn't want to spend my time, just to listen to arguments that were old when they were new.

I believe what Mike Berger offers is very up-to-date research, so not a lot of "old" at this upcoming event. You'll probably be hearing a lot of stuff that is "hot off the press." Given that the 9-11 attacks are the nexus of the huge attacks on our liberties ("after 9/11, everything is different"), it's one of the most important things for libertarians to come to grips with. If it was an inside job, for example, it would be important to find out who were the insiders and bring them to justice. This would, of course, shake a lot of trees - as the possibility of it being an inside job shakes a lot of peoples' psyches. I'm still with the philosophy of "Ye shall know the truth and the truth will set you free." It will be worth your time, trust me.

I already know that they're using the September 11th attacks to justify oppression, so why should I attend this?

Joe

[error]

It's the latest in a long, long line of excuses by which the government justifies its oppression of people. It wasn't necessary for the government to cause, enable, or look the other way. They get the same benefit, the oppression of We the People, regardless of whether they caused 9/11 or were entirely blindsided by it.

[Insurgent]

"I already know that they're using the September 11th attacks to justify oppression, so why should I attend this?"

Joe


You should come to this because there will be new information presented by experts that you likely haven't considered before.

I believe in this enough that I'll even offer a money-back guarantee. Since I booked the conference room and paid for it, I can do this! If you attend and feel it was a complete waste of time, I'll give you your $5 back  Same goes for everyone else

[MaineShark]

You should come to this because there will be new information presented by experts that you likely haven't considered before.

Why is that "likely"?

I believe in this enough that I'll even offer a money-back guarantee. Since I booked the conference room and paid for it, I can do this! If you attend and feel it was a complete waste of time, I'll give you your $5 back  Same goes for everyone else

My time is worth more than $5.

Joe

[Insurgent]

I learned a lot from the film, and I've been following information related to 9/11 since day 1. The scientists in the film present their findings in an approachable manner. Michael Berger, the film maker is also a wealth of knowledge about 9/11 and world events. I had the chance to finally meet him last week and was very impressed with him. So many people who talk about 9/11 come off as moonbats, but his credibility is impeccable.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue the point. I regret having got into the argument with mvpel because it ultimately only caused us to become angry with each other. I'm presenting this event as a wonderful time to perhaps learn something and interact with other people who have questions about 9/11 

[jaqeboy]

Anyway, I'm not going to argue the point.

You suck because you won't play the arguing game anymore!!!

What do you think you're trying to do? be effective, or something? 

Seriously, now... I've heard recommendations from 2 or 3 people in the last week to watch Oil, Smoke and Mirrors - they've all said it ties a lot of things together: home page: http://www.oilsmokeandmirrors.com/, google video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8677389869548020370. I'd watch it right now, but I have to sleep sometime!

Maybe MV911T can show that next to the assembled crowds (no arguers invited this time). Wonder if this filmmaker will go on tour?

[mvpel]

OK, I'll bite:  Mahmoud Ahmad, head of Pakistan's ISI (intelligence service) arranged for $100,000 to be wired to Mohammed Atta in the days preceding the 9/11 attacks.  After this was brought to the attention of the Bush Administration, the Bush Administration failed to request Mr. Ahmad's extradition.

Instead, we attacked Saddam Hussein.

Right now, Mr. Ahmad is living free as a bird in Pakistan, despite being clearly implicated in the events of 9/11.  On the day of 9/11, Mr. Ahmad was in America, meeting with the head of the Senate and House intelligence committees.  Earlier in that week he had met with Bush Administration officials.

Okay, so how does that set of facts prove that the towers were deliberately demolished by government operatives as suggested in the title and content of "Improbable Collapse," or any kind of Bush Administration complicity in the 9/11 attack, instead of just being an example of craven political expediency in the face of the extremely thorny prospect of criminally extraditing the chief of intelligence of a nominally-allied (SEATO, CENTO), nuclear-armed nation while we're trying to cultivate and repair post-Cold-War relations in the wake of a 40-year partnership in containing Soviet expansionism?

[Insurgent]

OK, I'll bite:  Mahmoud Ahmad, head of Pakistan's ISI (intelligence service) arranged for $100,000 to be wired to Mohammed Atta in the days preceding the 9/11 attacks.  After this was brought to the attention of the Bush Administration, the Bush Administration failed to request Mr. Ahmad's extradition.

Instead, we attacked Saddam Hussein.

Right now, Mr. Ahmad is living free as a bird in Pakistan, despite being clearly implicated in the events of 9/11.  On the day of 9/11, Mr. Ahmad was in America, meeting with the head of the Senate and House intelligence committees.  Earlier in that week he had met with Bush Administration officials.

Okay, so how does that set of facts prove that the towers were deliberately demolished by government operatives as suggested in the title and content of "Improbable Collapse," or any kind of Bush Administration complicity in the 9/11 attack, instead of just being an example of craven political expediency in the face of the extremely thorny prospect of criminally extraditing the chief of intelligence of a nominally-allied (SEATO, CENTO), nuclear-armed nation while we're trying to cultivate and repair post-Cold-War relations in the wake of a 40-year partnership in containing Soviet expansionism?

Why don't you tell us what's really bothering you?