9-11 was an inside job

[alohamonkey]

Maybe the design of the building didn't lend itself to a "chimney" effect.

Please explain this "chimney" effect in more detail and, if you can, please provide any supporting documentation that you have.  The "chimney" effect seems to be common knowledge on this board and I have requested verification/proof of it from KB and others in the past . . . but I have never received anything.  I'm curious b/c this is the first place I've ever heard of it. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_effect

Took less than a second with Google.

Now that you've picked your random factoid to harp on, do you care to actually address any of the relevant points I made?

OK.  Thanks.  Now that you've told me how a chimney works . . . can you tell me what relevance that has to this discussion? 

I merely mentioned it in passing as a possible difference between WTC7 and Windsor Tower. Seeing as how you chose to focus on it and ignore the rest of my post, you're the last person to be lecturing any one on sticking to the relevant issues.

The "chimney effect" is something that pops up on this thread quite frequently and it is the main reason that I'm not going to waste any more of my time discussing this topic with you.  I have yet to see anything describing how this theory applies to 9/11.  You and others throw out ideas that you assume to be true or relevant without doing any background research.  I respect your opinion but I would respect it more if you provided documentation or proof of some of your assertions.  Until then, I'm done with this argument . . . it is not very productive.   

[ThePug]

The "chimney effect" is something that pops up on this thread quite frequently

I never mentioned it except in passing as a possible difference between WTC7 and Windsor Tower. I never made any claim about the supposed nature of the chimney effect, or what effect it might have had at WTC7 and/or Windsor Tower, nor did I ever state that the chimney effect had anything to do with WTC7's collapse. Yet you focus on the chimney effect and demand I prove some claim that exists only in your head, rather than actually answering any of the objections I raised to your questionable logic.

I'm not going to waste any more of my time discussing this topic with you.

Yes, I supposed it would be a waste of time to "discuss" something with somebody while totally ignoring anything you don't want to have to respond to.

You and others throw out ideas that you assume to be true or relevant without doing any background research.

You're the one putting words in my mouth and relying on "research" that would never pass as such in the scientific community. Truthers do their own share of assuming about what is or isn't relevant, including yourself.

I respect your opinion but I would respect it more if you provided documentation or proof of some of your assertions

You've yet to ask about any assertion I've made that I haven't backed up. You've rather made up assertions that you claim I made and demand that I prove them before you answer any of my actual assertions.

Until then, I'm done with this argument . . . it is not very productive. 

Discussions that don't follow the rules of logic and intelligent debate don't tend to be.

I respect your opinion

I don't respect opinions. I do respect people, though, and that cartoon I posted earlier did pretty accurately reflected my feelings on the matter. I'm not angry at truthers, I'm frustrated that bright, intelligent, liberty-loving people become obsessed with such madness. If I fell for some scam, I'd expect my friends to tell me. If I became obsessed with a line of thought that had same rather glaring errors, I'd expect my friends to try and show me my blind spots. I certainly hope that I wouldn't become so combative that I'd look for any excuse I could to refuse to discuss the matter.

[kola]

people sure get prickly with all the holiday stress stuff happening.

i notice it every year.

odd.

I am always me,
Kola

[Russell Kanning]

you really think this thread is effected by the holidays? .... it just keeps going like this all the time

[jaqeboy]

There was a pretty thorough review of the NIST report re fires in the towers and the subsequent collapse initiation by Kevin Ryan, formerly of Underwriters Laboratories yesterday at the Boston conference. There was no mention of any chimney effect or stack effect phenomena, and there is no visual or other evidence reported by anyone, so I presume this is one of the debunking attempts we can concur should be put to rest.

What was new and interesting yesterday was Stephen Jones' analysis of the most freshly-gathered dust samples (from the towers' collapse) to date - gathered just 10 minutes after the collapse by a guy who had come up from the subway just minutes before the first collapse. He scooped up a handful of the dust once he picked himself up and saved it in a zip-lock bag. The x-ray spectrograph of the iron-containing samples showed a nearly identical profile to those of commercially-available and home-made Thermate. I'm sure Jones will be publishing his results.

[Insurgent]

The conference yesterday was excellent, and it was inspiring for it to take place in the historic hall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faneuil_Hall

Several hundred people were in attendance, including many engineers and scientists from the area community. Architect Richard Gage, founder of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth gave his presentation, and beforehand asked for a show of hands how many people were either unsure about 9/11 or believed the official story. Over thirty people raised their hands, but afterwards only about five people still were unsure.

As mentioned before, Physicist Steven Jones brought forward some new material to his presentation. I was particularly inspired by Dr Joel S. Hirshhorn's speech who reminded the audience that the 9/11 lie is not a partisan issue and that electing democrats is not going to solve the issue. He also pointed out that "the events of 9/11 are less important than the reasons for and the consequences of 9/11". I couldn't agree more.

[jaqeboy]

As you can imagine, the Tea Party planned for today is probably going to be a bust. It didn't make sense to get out in this snow to trek down there - even though I hate to miss the party at Hennessey's upstairs afterwards. We walked by the place after the end of the conference and it was rockin'! That's where we saw the Chick of Steel !

[jaqeboy]

Conference attenders also learned from both Stephen Jones and Kevin Ryan of their jointly filed (with others) Request for Correction (Information Quality Request #07-06) to the NIST report, due to errors in the report. RFC here.

NIST responded with a letter here. Notably, NIST did agree to make one correction, but denied all other requests.

An appeal of the NIST response has been filed - appeal here.

There is a correction process described in Section 515 of Public Law 106-554, the Data Quality Act, which is being followed.

[jaqeboy]

All this info (on the request for correction) is over at the Journal of 911 Studies, along with a lot of other interesting papers.

Also learned that NIST has posted a FAQ page regarding their report on the towers' collapses, and that they have added a supplement to the FAQ just days ago.

Also regarding the NIST report, we learned of a critique of the report, Building a Better Mirage, by physicist Jim Hoffman.

There, that ought to complete your reading assignment for this term 

[alohamonkey]

Jaqeboy and Insurgent . . . thanks for the links and info.  Looks like I'll be busy with some homework for the next few days   

You've yet to ask about any assertion I've made that I haven't backed up. You've rather made up assertions that you claim I made and demand that I prove them before you answer any of my actual assertions.

Pug, this is my last post directed at you.  You have made many assertions without backing them up.  I'm not going to waste my time looking them up but one I remember off the top of my head is when you said "hundreds of thousands of tons of debris crashed down onto WTC 7."  Those might not have been your exact words but it's another example of you just egging me on in this discussion without any documentation for your assertions.   A few people asked you to verify this and you ignored us.  Combining that with your "chimney effect" idea proves to me that you're not serious about discussing this.  Like I said, I'm done discussing this with you . . . I don't have time for this.  Happy holidays!

[ThePug]

You have made many assertions without backing them up.  I'm not going to waste my time looking them up but one I remember off the top of my head is when you said "hundreds of thousands of tons of debris crashed down onto WTC 7."

Yes, because I obviously intended that to be a precise figure. It couldn't just be a number used figuratively to make the point that a bunch of debris fell on the building, or anything like that... 

Those might not have been your exact words but it's another example of you just egging me on in this discussion without any documentation for your assertions.

"Egging you on"? You're the one who, rather than actually respond to the substance of my posts, harped on the irrelevant minutiae. I'm surprised you didn't start pointing out grammatical errors as an excuse to not respond.

A few people asked you to verify this and you ignored us.

As opposed to yourself, who ignored entire posts.

Combining that with your "chimney effect" idea proves to me that you're not serious about discussing this.

This idea that I even have a "chimney effect idea" proves that you did little more than scan my posts for buzzwords that you could attack rather than actually think about the point I was making, much less respond to it.

Like I said, I'm done discussing this with you . . . I don't have time for this.

Fine, take your ball and go home. In light of the fact that you failed to contradict any of my points, I'll consider that a victory. 

Happy holidays!

Merry Christmas!

[jaqeboy]

Just to add to your reading assignment alohamonkey, a guy named Ryan Mackey responded to critics of the NIST report (esp. David Ray Griffin's book Debunking 9/11 Debunking) and Kevin Ryan responds to Mackey in a Dec 4, 07 letter in the Journal of 911 Studies.

Interesting repartee.

[maxxoccupancy]

I've found that if you want to find a conspiracy, don't dwell on small, technical details.  Look for the cover up.  Government cover ups are sloppy, and this seems to be another example of one.  Politically motivated studies have predetermined conclusions and tend to accept only those facts that support the conclusion, twisting facts to suit theories, rather than vice versa.

There is another issue that is typically dismissed by those enamored with official explanations:  It's not MY fucking job--nor anyone else's--to convince you of anything.  Why the fuck would you think that it is?  It's YOUR job to find the truth for yourself.  Irrational fear of a conclusion seems to lend more credibility to that conclusion, since a great number of its opponents are employing emotional reasoning to avoid such a conclusion.

So what's so scary about an idea?  That the world might be round?  That a man named Jesus really lived?  That there could be a Bigfoot?  That our government carried out another false flag black op right in front of us?  It is not my job either as a merchant mariner nor as a porcupine to convince you of anything.  You pay me nothing to beat the facts into your timid mind, and would more likely offer something never to hear scary facts in the first place.

A libertarian is not simply someone who can score well on the World's Smallest Political Quiz, but someone who can question authority with such vigor and reason that one deserves the title.

[jaqeboy]

Another mention of the Cossiga statements (this one from a blogger named Phillip Marlowe - reveals that Cossiga is dying of cancer, hence he has nothing to lose):

Cossiga, the man who set up Operation Gladio tells Italy's largest newspaper attacks were run by the USA's CIA and the Israeli Mossad.

Exploding across the Internet in one of the biggest bombshells to date, is the thoughts from a man who has had inside knowledge of these kinds of things since the get-go. He's also dying from cancer and has nothing left to lose. Hes been an insider to the intelligence community for decades and well-respected in Italy. He says, along with himself, that it's now a common belief among current intelligence people that 9/11 was, indeed, an inside job!

He's one of the people who revealed the existence of a top-secret CIA plan in Europe during the cold war that used "false-flag" operations designed to paint any pro-Soviet groups in Europe as terrorists. This was a careful scheme to plant double agents within the lefty ranks and also to use bombing and assassination to make those commies look evil to the general population (somethings never change). The plan was called Operation Gladio.

Cossiga revealed all of this to the Italian Parliament in the year 2000. His honesty and integrity over the entire matter made him beloved by his people and yet the powers that be, used his revelations to force him out of office for exposing the real deal. Now, he's saying that the attack on the US was an obvious false flag event staged by the CIA along with the Israeli Mossad to give them an excuse to do what they will in the Mideast:

Former Italian President and the man who revealed the existence of Operation Gladio, Francesco Cossiga, has gone public on 9/11, telling Italy's most respected newspaper that the attacks were run by the CIA and Mossad and that this was common knowledge amongst global intelligence agencies.

Ex-Italian President: Intel Agencies Know 9/11 An Inside Job

If you can read Italian, here's the source newspaper: Corriere della Sera, it's supposed to be Italy's oldest and most widely respected Newspaper.

I don't read Italian well, but this sure is an interesting story - wondering what follow-up there will be...

[jaqeboy]

Maybe they'll start a group called "Former heads of State for 9/11 Truth"