9-11 was an inside job

[KBCraig]

Yeah, I know - who doesn't remember exactly where they were and what they were doing when they heard the news?? Especially someone who was actually reporting on it....

We remember where we were when we heard the news, but not necessarily when we heard specific details of an ongoing breaking story.

I remember the exact details of when I heard Elvis had died. I remember the exact details of hearing about the OKC bombing. I remember the exact details of learning the WTC towers had been hit by airplanes.

What I don't recall with clarity are the details of the ongoing developments in those cases. I haven't the vaguest notion of when I heard the details of Elvis's death, nor when we learned McVeigh had been arrested, nor the sequence of building collapses at the WTC complex.

This is my personal anecdote, and nothing more. Even anecdotes serve as data to refute the idea that everyone automatically remembers every detail of ongoing breaking news.

Reporters frequently get things wrong. Just this week a Chicago newspaper reported on new patrol carbines for the Chicago PD, and used the term "semi fully-automatic assault weapons". Especially in TV news, there's a rush to report things first, which quite often means on-the-spot reports are horribly wrong.

WTC-7 had been pending collapse for hours before it fell. NYPD had pulled back from the area early in the afternoon. Some TV talking head reporting that someone else had told him that WTC-7 had collapsed simply isn't reliable for the timeline.

[Dylboz]

I'll repost what I said elsewhere, but if you believe 9/11 "was an inside job," you give the government FAR more credit than it deserves. Anyway, here goes:

To my mind, the desire to believe there was a conspiracy, in the "Truther" sense, is a psychological defense mechanism that wants to believe that there is some overarching, all powerful entity in charge of everything, even if it's an evil government, rather than accept how truly vulnerable we are to the actions of angry individuals or small groups.

Because if a dozen and a half angry dudes can hijack a few planes any day they want, despite the huge, intrusive, expensive and violent gang of thugs we let trample out freedoms daily, who promise, in exchange for all their abuses, to at least keep us safe from that... well, we're in really deep shit now, aren't we?

If, on the other hand, that gang was in control the whole time, then the system itself, the "government" CAN keep us safe, it DOES control everything, and what went wrong was, evil people used it against us. They would never let some scruffy rag-heads do this! Never! HA! That's rich... no way! Of course it's Bush! Clinton would never do that! And so on.

The conspiracy theory actually brings faith in the competence and power of government to an all time high. The number of voices silenced, the number of witnesses paid off, the precision, skill and luck that'd be required to pull some of these theories off just boggles the mind! The CT narrative just changes this omnipotent power's ends to evil instead of good. It remains the same story, though, and I think that's why "Truthers" want to see "justice done." Because ultimately, they still trust the system to right itself, or at the very least, they see no other means to achieve those ends.

...

And, in the end, it really doesn't matter. I don't need that story to know that the State is EVIL. I don't need that conspiracy to see through their many other lies. It wont change a single thing for me even if incontrovertible evidence one way or the other comes to light tomorrow. It would be just one more stain on the very long and filthy record of vile crimes perpetrated by the state. Besides, even if everyone agreed it was "an inside job," what would you do about it?

So, no, it wasn't an "inside job." It was the kind of incompetence that only government can exploit for their profit and benefit.

[jaqeboy]

I'll repost what I said elsewhere, but if you believe 9/11 "was an inside job," you give the government FAR more credit than it deserves. ...

"9/11 Was An Inside Job" is an expression someone came up with in an attempt to create a usable sound bite. Some use that expression, others do not. If you are using the term "government" in the sense of referring to the surface/known agencies, ie, Presidency, Exec. Agencies, Military, Congress, etc. and limiting your purview to that level, you may have missed some of the discussion...

To my mind, the desire to believe there was a conspiracy, in the "Truther" sense, is a psychological defense mechanism that wants to believe that there is some overarching, all powerful entity in charge of everything, even if it's an evil government, rather than accept how truly vulnerable we are to the actions of angry individuals or small groups.

Because if a dozen and a half angry dudes can hijack a few planes any day they want, despite the huge, intrusive, expensive and violent gang of thugs we let trample out freedoms daily, who promise, in exchange for all their abuses, to at least keep us safe from that... well, we're in really deep shit now, aren't we?

If, on the other hand, that gang was in control the whole time, then the system itself, the "government" CAN keep us safe, it DOES control everything, and what went wrong was, evil people used it against us. They would never let some scruffy rag-heads do this! Never! HA! That's rich... no way! Of course it's Bush! Clinton would never do that! And so on.

The conspiracy theory actually brings faith in the competence and power of government to an all time high. The number of voices silenced, the number of witnesses paid off, the precision, skill and luck that'd be required to pull some of these theories off just boggles the mind! The CT narrative just changes this omnipotent power's ends to evil instead of good. It remains the same story, though, and I think that's why "Truthers" want to see "justice done." Because ultimately, they still trust the system to right itself, or at the very least, they see no other means to achieve those ends.

Actually, there is a gross and probably intentional mis-labelling of the 2 disparate movements. The Bushies/PNAC group (one movement) propound a conspiracy theory of how the crimes took place and independent investigators/doubters/truth seekers (the other movement) have found gaping holes in the Bush/PNAC Conspiracy Theory, hence they propose a proper, thorough investigation to determine what really did happen (ie, Truth). So in a sense, you are right when you say "The conspiracy theory actually brings faith in the competence and power of government to an all time high." - When "the crime was solved" so quickly, Americans were willing to accept a call to war and a clampdown of civil liberties almost overnight. Independent investigators and libertarians say "Wait just a minute - you didn't solve the crime... you can't therefore justify these wars and the crackdowns of our freedoms..."

...

And, in the end, it really doesn't matter. I don't need that story to know that the State is EVIL. I don't need that conspiracy to see through their many other lies. It wont change a single thing for me even if incontrovertible evidence one way or the other comes to light tomorrow. It would be just one more stain on the very long and filthy record of vile crimes perpetrated by the state. Besides, even if everyone agreed it was "an inside job," what would you do about it?

So, no, it wasn't an "inside job." It was the kind of incompetence that only government can exploit for their profit and benefit.

This is the "the government is incompetent, therefore it couldn't be an inside job" theory. What this theory serves to do is create a fog of cynicism over historical inquiry and factual investigation and encourages hopelessness. Personally, I'm not a follower of that theory, nor do I conclude that cynicism is my best path to knowledge, nor do I accept hopelessness. I just don't like that path. I find the theory you propound to be anti-reasonable and I think people can continue along the path of the Age of Reason and, by using those techniques, approach more nearly "the Truth". I believe we have choices and consciousness that we can use to aid our knowledge and create a better society. I choose that path.

[Russell Kanning]

after a while there might not be any original footage left from the major media ... there will only be the copies that people have made over time.
Then the msm and the thugs will act like it is fabricated.
They don't have any decent footage of the moon stuff. They even went through a lot of trouble of making it in the first place ... and now it is gone.

[Dylboz]

Oh no. If we're gonna start in on "NASA never went to the moon" stuff, I'm outta here.

Call me a cynic if you like, but I've spent weeks looking at the "evidence" that the "Truthers" regard as ground breaking, and I have gone through the various theories they  propound, each more complicated, improbable and divergent from my personal recollection of events that day, and come to a different conclusion than you. I spent a lot of time debunking these theories both online and with people in my personal life. I wrote quite a bit, and did a lot of research into original documents and witness testimony, and I think it was pretty thorough and persuasive, if you're not already invested in the "Truther" position. I found that psychological investment to be the most compelling factor for these folks, because it never mattered how well I managed to address their unfounded concerns about "controlled demolition" or the gold reserves supposedly spirited out of the WTC like it was a remake of Die Hard With a Vengance, or whichever particular 9/11 CT they had latched onto. They want to believe. I looked at the evidence, evaluated the sources, and came to the conclusion that while I can't know all the facts, and that it's likely the authorities are lying to cover their asses in a lot of places, things happened pretty much as I remember them and as the 9/11 commission reported they did. If I were looking for stuff to hold them accountable for, it would be their willful disregard of the evidence that such an event was in the offing, including reports from agents at multiple field offices that terrorists were training to fly but not land, and worst of all, their cynical exploitation of these tragic events in the immediate aftermath to pursue their own bloody agendas in the middle east.

Anyway, you guys got my .02, and I'm not gonna go any further down the rabbit hole with ya. If anyone wants to look at the stuff I put together years back, I'm assembling it for a friend on another forum, and if you PM me, I'll hook you up too. Meanwhile, I don't think I'll be back in this thread anytime soon.

Cheers!

PS - I don't think I'm being hopeless at all. I'm saying we're more powerful than we thought we were, and the forces arrayed against us aren't as powerful or capable or in control as we thought before. That's good news, especially for the kind of anti-political activism that is going on in the FSP. They have their grip firmly on "the system," but they can't control what goes on outside it. Now, hijacking planes for murderous purposes is not the most ideal inspirational act, in fact, it's pretty despicable, but it shows that small groups of determined individuals can thwart the best efforts of Leviathan to control them. I'm no fan of Islamic jihadis, nor their terrorist methods, but they exposed the inherent weakness of this country's government, and they have frightened it into destroying itself at a faster rate than ever before. Now is the time to get out, as the fist tightens, grains of sand pass between the fingers, and soon it is clutching nothing.

[Russell Kanning]

Oh no. If we're gonna start in on "NASA never went to the moon" stuff, I'm outta here.

... and I'm not gonna go any further down the rabbit hole with ya. If anyone wants to look at the stuff I put together years back, I'm assembling it for a friend on another forum, and if you PM me, I'll hook you up too. Meanwhile, I don't think I'll be back in this thread anytime soon.

the moon stuff is in a different thread

there is also a nice long thread

9/11 was not an inside job

but it didn't have the staying power .... or the endless evidence that Jack posts

[jaqeboy]

...
Call me a cynic if you like...

K

...my personal recollection of events that day...

For most, these recollections come from the reporting from MSM sources - some have come to question their fairness and objectivity. Upon examination of the ownership of the media giants and their interlocking directorates with MI complex companies, one is left even more suspicious of their objectivity (See, for example, http://theyrule.net/ for finding the linkage between the major corporations involved. Also, see previous analyses by people like Domhoff, Who Rules America, or even earlier analysis by Smoot, The Invisible Government, and others)

...I looked at the evidence, evaluated the sources, and came to the conclusion that while I can't know all the facts, and that it's likely the authorities are lying to cover their asses in a lot of places,

well, we're definitely on the same page here.

... things happened pretty much as I remember them and as the 9/11 commission reported they did.

It is to be remembered that in creating a psyop, like the 9/11 events may have been, it is important for the perpetrators to create a workable Conspiracy Theory, or Public Myth, as Phillip Zelikow calls it. David Ray Griffin speaks eloquently on the power of myth in public motivation, as well as does Robert Bly (not, of course, referring to the events surrounding 9/11, but with more ancient peoples). When Phillip Zelikow (Mr. Creating Public Myth) was selected as executive director of the 9/11 Commission (after Henry Kissinger was forced out by the Jersey Girls' tough challenges), he went to great lengths to insure that the same consistent public perception was supported, damn the evidence. The family members reject that report (see: 9/11; Press for Truth and the sequel In Their Own Words) and the congressional leaders of the commission, Kean and Hamilton, have come to question it as well (see: Wikipedia ). Some will find it to be consistent with previous notions or perceptions, as you have, but all should consider the sources and the countervailing evidence to get a better picture of what did (and did not) happen. IE, the media reports and the commission report were created by people with a political purpose, not a historical truth purpose.

It's worth noting that "Truthers", people who seek truth, are anti-Conspiracy Theory, since that construct serves political state purposes, not the truth. There seems to be some confusion on this, which, of course the Bushies exploit to the max - they have inverted reality to promote the desired perception (that their Conspiracy Theory is reasonable).

If I were looking for stuff to hold them accountable for, it would be their willful disregard of the evidence that such an event was in the offing, including reports from agents at multiple field offices that terrorists were training to fly but not land

One should wonder about that, shouldn't one?

, and worst of all, their cynical exploitation of these tragic events in the immediate aftermath to pursue their own bloody agendas in the middle east.

Some are lead to the question "Cui bono?" and others onward to "was it mere 'cynical exploitation' or was it part of a plan?", a la the PNAC "Rebuilding America's Defenses."

Anyway, you guys got my .02, and I'm not gonna go any further down the rabbit hole with ya. If anyone wants to look at the stuff I put together years back, I'm assembling it for a friend on another forum, and if you PM me, I'll hook you up too. Meanwhile, I don't think I'll be back in this thread anytime soon.

You'll always be welcome among friends who treat each other in a friendly manner.

PS - I don't think I'm being hopeless at all. I'm saying we're more powerful than we thought we were, and the forces arrayed against us aren't as powerful or capable or in control as we thought before. That's good news, especially for the kind of anti-political activism that is going on in the FSP. They have their grip firmly on "the system," but they can't control what goes on outside it. Now, hijacking planes for murderous purposes is not the most ideal inspirational act, in fact, it's pretty despicable, but it shows that small groups of determined individuals can thwart the best efforts of Leviathan to control them. I'm no fan of Islamic jihadis, nor their terrorist methods, but they exposed the inherent weakness of this country's government, and they have frightened it into destroying itself at a faster rate than ever before.

Good on your recognition of the power of people who become engaged (which kinda requires unplugging from the MSM propaganda machine, among other things.)

"They (who"exposed the inherent weakness of this country's government")"... - who "they" are seems to be one of the open questions, though, don't you agree? The "Islamic jihadis" of the public myth are ever-more in doubt as primary players in this one, though "they" are essential for the public myth that results in the desired "War Between Civilizations" scenario that some want to foster.

Now is the time to get out, as the fist tightens, grains of sand pass between the fingers, and soon it is clutching nothing.

To your hopefulness, brother. Cynicism's a killa'

[jaqeboy]

a note from Les Jamieson of NY911Truth:

--- A N N O U N C I N G  ----

RALLY FOR THE NYC 9/11 BALLOT INITIATIVE

When: Wednesday April 30, 7:30 pm
Where: St. Mark's Church, 2nd Avenue @ 10th Street

The New York City 9/11 Ballot Initiative Campaign, a non-profit, citizens based organization, whose goal is the creation of an independent commission to lead a new investigation into the tragedy of 9/11, will be holding a rally on Wednesday, April 30th at 7:30 PM at St. Mark's Church in the Bowery. The campaign hopes to put the issue of a new investigation of 9/11 on the November 2008 NYC ballot as a public referendum. Come and learn about this historic effort! Press packets will be available. Visit www.nyc911initiative.org for full campaign details.

Featured guest speakers include:

Dr. William Pepper, international human rights attorney
John Feal, Director of the Feal Good Foundation, dedicated to meeting the health needs of thousands of sick first responders
Bob McIlvaine, 9/11 victim family member
Ralph Schoenman & Mya Shone, hosts of Taking Aim on WBAI-FM
Lynne Stewart, the people's lawyer
and other guests to be announced.

The event will be moderated by the Reverend Frank Morales.

The rally will be an opportunity for the press and public to learn about the 9/11 Ballot Initiative Campaign and to fill out petitions. Upon reaching 30,000 valid signatures which are lawfully required to put the Initiative on the ballot, NYC voters will be enabled to create a fact-driven investigation of 9/11, which will be distinct from the former Kean-Hamilton Commission because this will go beyond political agendas by exploring all possible scenarios, following the evidence wherever it may lead.

Our goal can be reached with just 300-400 volunteers getting just a few hundred signatures each! This can be done in 15 hours of your spare time! Join the campaign for a new, honest and authentic investigation of 9/11! We owe it to the victims, the first responders, ourselves, and future generations.

Suggested donation: $15, sliding scale accepted

Towards truth,

Les Jamieson
NYC 9/11 Ballot Initiative Steering Committee

[jaqeboy]

Was 10:45 the time WTC7 was supposed to come down? Listen to this CNN reporting:

Article at: http://www.911blogger.com/node/15318

[KBCraig]

Was 10:45 the time WTC7 was supposed to come down? Listen to this CNN reporting:

How incredibly vague. "Another collapse or explosion" (there's quite a difference!), 15 minutes after the second tower fell. The source was "a firefighter rushed passed us saying another 50 stories went down".

Do you have any indication, other than presupposition, that this was anything other than a hasty report by a TV reporter who didn't have anything factual to report, and who was desperate to reporting anything to get on the air? Has there ever been a major breaking story where we don't see dozens of inaccurate reports in the early hours, by news sources trying to scoop the competition?

Maybe we should ask President Dewey....

[jaqeboy]

Was 10:45 the time WTC7 was supposed to come down? Listen to this CNN reporting:

...

Do you have any indication, other than presupposition, that this was anything other than a hasty report by a TV reporter who didn't have anything factual to report, and who was desperate to reporting anything to get on the air?...
...

You can probably find the CNN contact info somewhere and dig further than just this video, which is no more than what it is. As far as I know, though, this is the earliest reporting of all the suspicious reporting of the collapse of WTC7 before it actually collapsed. Please let us know what you find out, OK?

[jaqeboy]

KB, I listened again and the anchor is Aaron Brown (who was on air all day for CNN), and it sounds like the reporter in the street is Allan Dodds Frank. Sounds like Frank would be the one you'd want to ask where he got his info from. If it was truly an advance-written release, that would be something to see. I do doubt there is remaining documentation, but if you found that, that would truly be a coup. Good luck on your research and please let us know what you come up with.

[jaqeboy]

KB, there's a more thorough discussion at http://911blogger.com/node/15318 where shoestring lays out his speculation and there are some interesting further comments. I haven't read them all, but perhaps someone on that thread has contacted Frank (to save you the trouble). I'm sure there will be follow up on one of the WTC7 research sites. Good to see your interest anyway and again, please let us know what your research reveals. Thanks.

[KBCraig]

You can probably find the CNN contact info ...

I'm not the one purporting this to be evidence of anything other than the confusion of the moment.

KB, there's a more thorough discussion at http://911blogger.com/node/15318 where shoestring lays out his speculation and there are some interesting further comments.

I read the speculation and the comments. Zero objective analysis. Everyone commenting there presumes it was pre-planned controlled demolition, thus they look at all data as if they support that conclusion.

This is why the truther movement is laughed at.

[jaqeboy]

You can probably find the CNN contact info ...

I'm not the one purporting this to be evidence of anything other than the confusion of the moment.

KB, there's a more thorough discussion at http://911blogger.com/node/15318 where shoestring lays out his speculation and there are some interesting further comments.

I read the speculation and the comments. Zero objective analysis. Everyone commenting there presumes it was pre-planned controlled demolition, thus they look at all data as if they support that conclusion.

You may want to help them out and share your wisdom on the subject on that blog. I know you've studied the issue thoroughly and can make it clear which things should be considered and which should not. This might help clear up things for them, since you have a better handle on it than they do.